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Thread: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

  1. #136
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Oh no, we're doin it like they do on the Discovery channel.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  2. #137
    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Articles garnered from various news sources, government websites, etc. Do you live in a bubble or something? Recruitment numbers are so low they aren't meeting quotas and havent been for about 2 years. It's common knowledge.
    Again, what sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlock
    Oh here we go.. "You hate 'Murrica! You hate the army! You hate (insert stupid emotionalism in place of rational conversation here to cover up intellectual bankruptcy and topical ignorance)!"
    Yes, and you made my point. So what's yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlock
    I'll criticize what I like, and if you don't agree with it, too fucking bad. I'm entitled to do what the fuck I want, little mrs Eva Braun.
    LOL - Yes, you are free to do what you like and yes, tough sh*t if I disagree or don't like it.

    But again what's your point? Calling me 'little mrs Eva Braun' - while providing interesting illumination on how you handle opposing points of view - is hardly going to hurt my feelings or change my position.
    Claude os, aperi oculos!

  3. #138
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by lovely bones
    Again, what sources?
    CNN? FOX news? go dig it up, don't be so lazy.

    Yes, and you made my point. So what's yours?
    Your point is false, stupid, and biased based on your military leanings. If I hated 'Murrica so much, I wouldn't be inviting a few 'Murricans up in a couple weeks, nor would I ever have been there, nor would I appreciate anything about it.

    LOL - Yes, you are free to do what you like and yes, tough sh*t if I disagree or don't like it.
    Glad we're on the same page.

    But again what's your point? Calling me 'little mrs Eva Braun' - while providing interesting illumination on how you handle opposing points of view - is hardly going to hurt my feelings or change my position.
    No, calling you little Eva Braun is an allusion to fascist attitudes, the "you have no right to (insert activity here)" display clearly demonstrates that.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  4. #139
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by ultrafabviolet
    The best thing about the “Universal soldier,” the mindless, unfeeling, unemotional, wholly logic-driven killing machine is that it is impervious to “slings and arrows,” both in the literal and figurative sense.


    Oh, but to command such “model soldiers!” Hardly.

    Instead, commanders are charged with the solemn responsibility of sending into battle tragically flawed, conflicted lumps of flesh, fear, pride, courage, hatred, compassion, and “obstinate questioning.” They yearn, bleed, laugh, cry, regret, gasp, wince, withdraw, reach out, and celebrate even the most ridiculously small of fleeting personal victories in between the most final of deaths.









    Inglorious and “Magnificent Bastards” are they, honorable warriors who quietly suffer eyes that have seen too much and hearts torn between their love of family and their duty to God, Country, and Corps.



    It is humbling in the extreme to stand in the cool, long, shadows cast by giants . . . giants who will look a man square in the eye and with unflinching humility say, ‘I’m just a regular guy,” or “I’m just an ordinary woman.”

    If only such were the case.

    These are extraordinarily selfless individuals, and I love and admire each and every one of them to a fault. Those who have not stood, crawled, fallen, and knelt beside them. . . . There are no words. There is no “can only imagine.”

    For those of us who have stood, crawled, fallen, and knelt beside them. . . .
    There is no need for words.



    Words will not change the hardened heart and closed mind of the individual whose rash thoughts and insipient grousing are born of a place where love of something greater than himself is neither valued nor understood. Such an individual is an entity unto himself. He exists alone and apart from the whole. His anger and insolence are but the manifestation of his ignorance and frustration and, ultimately, his self-awareness of his station in life. Words and not deeds are the measure of his life. Pity him, for he is all he has.

    As for the rest, continue to live by the means for the sake of the ends. Know that there is a God, and He is just. Pick up your Cross and bear it with pride—because you can, because it is yours.

    And as for what lies at the heart of this thread, I ask myself what it is that I would say to the eight year-old boy as his father is laid to rest, the flag folded and handed to his mother “on behalf of a grateful nation.”



    “That folded flag is your father. When lesser men sat down, he stood up.”


    Vi
    all I managed to get from this (and these pics) is that Damn! soldiers are HOT!..well okay not ALL I got out of it..but they are hot...and if the one does not want to go then fine..I agree completely with pacific breezes comment on here a few days ago..the war being wages is based on a LIE! it is for oil and Halliburton and there were no WMD! All of the sacred vows to fight when joining the military have been rendered null and void by the lying current US Administration..and any one soldier who wants to walk away from Iraq(and the illegal, lie-based immoral war being waged there) should be able to say adios Middle East and head to another part of the service to perform their duty/serve their term!

  5. #140
    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlock
    Recruitment numbers are so low they aren't meeting quotas and havent been for about 2 years. It's common knowledge.
    I looked it up and found this in two places - AP and BreitBart.

    Before it began the streak in June 2005, the active Army had missed its target four consecutive months. And even though results improved during the summer months, it missed its full-year target for the first time since 1999. The Army National Guard and Army Reserve also fell short of their 2005 goals but are doing better now.
    I still cannot find the two-year period of the military not meeting its quotas. I'm not lazy, I just can't find it. I know that the different branches have different quotas and met or haven't met them at different times or months. I also know that the early part of 2005 was when we were getting pounded in Iraq, while at the same time there continues to be a concerted effort to boot the military recruiters off of college campuses so of course recruiting efforts will take a hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlock
    No, calling you little Eva Braun is an allusion to fascist attitudes, the "you have no right to (insert activity here)" display clearly demonstrates that.
    I never said, "you have no right" - I said "you are not entitled". Big difference; I don't see how that equates me to a little (ohhell, why not BIG? lol) Eva Braun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Your point is false, stupid, and biased based on your military leanings. If I hated 'Murrica so much, I wouldn't be inviting a few 'Murricans up in a couple weeks, nor would I ever have been there, nor would I appreciate anything about it.
    I never said you hated America. You took my previous postings and made assumptions that are BS.

    "Military leanings" - what does that mean? I was military. I didn't "lean toward" anything because I was IN it. Are you making assumptions about my politics based on my military background? I think you'd be shocked - no one who knows me would ever say what you've said or are assuming about me.

    As for my point being 'false, stupid and biased' - call it what you want. But there are plenty of other people who don't agree with you, just like they don't agree with me. So what? If you keep the personal digs out of it, we may all learn something once in awhile.

    I stand by my position that this Army lieutenant has failed to honor his commitments to his country and his unit, and that does mean something having been in the military.

    Yes, Americans/military can be weak, lazy, arrogant, fatally stupid and a whole lot of other things bad - we're also smart, brave, strong, resilient, accomodating, and whole lot of things good. We make a lot of mistakes. What the hell, we're human. I can see both sides of an argument without personally attacking an opposing point of view, and am equally willing to defend as much as reconsider mine.
    Claude os, aperi oculos!

  6. #141
    Bronze Member ultrafabviolet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    I'll criticize what I like,
    Hmmm . . . now that seems rather odd; however, by all means continue to criticize that which you like. "Each man kills the thing he loves," so writeth Wilde. I say, go forth with all ye might, brave soldier [sic].

    and if you don't agree with it, too fucking bad.
    It is refreshing to witness someone dedicating himself/herself to making the world a better place by keeping intelligent discourse alive, one foul-mouthed personal insult at a time. Uh . . . ya . . . that'll work. (wink, wink; nudge, nudge)

    I'm entitled to do what the fuck I want,
    By decree of Heaven? I think not. By sovereign mandate? Highly doubtful. By law, writ, court order, or a simple show of hands? Nope. And as for the continued, shrill, gratuitous use of profanity, well, that is, as they say: "The first one to raise his/her voice loses the argument." I believe we have a winner.

    little mrs Eva Braun.
    PUNCUATE! "Mrs." is both a proper noun (capitalized) and an abbreviation (period after the last letter). As for the "Hitler's lover" reference. . . . Foremost, it is a personal attack: something you, Grimmlock, have become both increasingly free therewith and exceedingly quick to resort thereto. Secondly and given the context, the verbiage is rife with anti-Semitic overtones and implications, which would classify it as a hate crime and illegal according to the laws of virtually every civilized country the world over, and in particular American, German, British, Canadian, French, and International law. The Internet is NOT beyond the boundaries of the law and the reach of law enforcement. The authorities have been and remain very much attuned to your posts.

    On a brighter note, good taste and basic human decency know no bounds, and the vast majority of those who post are quite magnificent in that regard. To those of you who do not throw sand and toys, I raise my glass.

    Cheers.

    That said, Moderator? A little help would be nice, please?

    Vi
    Don't be ridiculous, Stephen: wearing a helmet does not make it "safe," and the answer is still "no."

  7. #142
    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita
    and any one soldier who wants to walk away from Iraq(and the illegal, lie-based immoral war being waged there) should be able to say adios Middle East and head to another part of the service to perform their duty/serve their term!
    Are you kidding or is this a serious comment?

  8. #143
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    Are you kidding or is this a serious comment?
    Go ahead and roll on the floor laughing...in fact you can laugh until you cough up a lung a die. Were you in the military?..why not go back or volunteer yourself so you can take a bullet in the head...don't worry..chances are it would not hit anything vital or important in there.

  9. #144
    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by ultrafabviolet
    Hmmm . . . now that seems rather odd; however, by all means continue to criticize that which you like. "Each man kills the thing he loves," so writeth Wilde. I say, go forth with all ye might, brave soldier [sic].


    It is refreshing to witness someone dedicating himself/herself to making the world a better place by keeping intelligent discourse alive, one foul-mouthed personal insult at a time. Uh . . . ya . . . that'll work. (wink, wink; nudge, nudge)


    By decree of Heaven? I think not. By sovereign mandate? Highly doubtful. By law, writ, court order, or a simple show of hands? Nope. And as for the continued, shrill, gratuitous use of profanity, well, that is, as they say: "The first one to raise his/her voice loses the argument." I believe we have a winner.


    PUNCUATE! "Mrs." is both a proper noun (capitalized) and an abbreviation (period after the last letter). As for the "Hitler's lover" reference. . . . Foremost, it is a personal attack: something you, Grimmlock, have become both increasingly free therewith and exceedingly quick to resort thereto. Secondly and given the context, the verbiage is rife with anti-Semitic overtones and implications, which would classify it as a hate crime and illegal according to the laws of virtually every civilized country the world over, and in particular American, German, British, Canadian, French, and International law. The Internet is NOT beyond the boundaries of the law and the reach of law enforcement. The authorities have been and remain very much attuned to your posts.

    On a brighter note, good taste and basic human decency know no bounds, and the vast majority of those who post are quite magnificent in that regard. To those of you who do not throw sand and toys, I raise my glass.

    Cheers.

    That said, Moderator? A little help would be nice, please?

    Vi
    That's what I call a high left, kick fake to the right chop and a power-right fist to the package area!

    Vi - 3
    Grimm - 0

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita
    Go ahead and roll on the floor laughing...in fact you can laugh until you cough up a lung a die. Were you in the military?..why not go back or volunteer yourself so you can take a bullet in the head...don't worry..chances are it would not hit anything vital or important in there.
    So I guess you won't be buying me a drink anytime soon?

  10. #145
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    That's what I call a high left, kick fake to the right chop and a power-right fist to the package area!

    Vi - 3
    Grimm - 0



    So I guess you won't be buying me a drink anytime soon?
    Sure I will..have a Potassium Cyanide-laced Big Gulp..on me!

  11. #146
    Bronze Member ultrafabviolet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    and if the one does not want to go then fine..
    I'll be glad to do you one better: "If the one does not want to go then fine . . . [DON'T SIGN UP!]" No basic training, PT, "junk on the bunk," spot inspections, Quarterdecking, MREs, ad infinitum. Again, what is the best way to ensure that you are not forced to deliver Hostess Twinkies to a C-store in Hell's Kitchen in the dead of night during a blizzard? DON'T BECOME A HOSTESS TWINKIE VENDOR. It is EXACTLY the same mechanism. Really. It is. Seriously. Yep.

    I agree completely with pacific breezes comment on here a few days ago..the war being wages is based on a LIE!
    Hmmm . . . “a LIE?” I am not familiar with that base. Is that in the north? Perhaps between Kirkuk and the border? (Sorry; couldn’t resist. “Base” humor at my expense. How base of me; then again, I’m pretty base. Again, I’m sorry.)

    it is for oil and Halliburton and there were no WMD!
    while I respectfully disagree, to a point, I am willing to consider a divergent perspective.

    That said, Here, here! FOR oil! FOR Haliburton (actually, I’d much prefer Halle Berry, but I’ll take what I can get)! FOR no WMDs! It all sounds quite rational to me. 'Tis but a matter of perspective: BUY BP/SHELL/EXXON/TEXACO/YOU-NAME-IT-BIG-OIL-INC STOCKS! (uh-DUH!); BUY HALLIBURTON STOCK! (Again, uh-DUH!) That way you can be not only pissed-off and ranting to the glazed-eyed ill-informed masses, you can also be financially secure if not downright FILTHY RICH . . . and ranting to the glazed-eyed ill-informed masses. A no-brainer to be sure. Everybody wins! Again, nowhere is it written (and I CHECKED!) that you have to be poor to "have a voice." I mean, gosh, look at Michael Moore! But I digress. . . .

    THINK: "Rich/bitch." It's one of those double entendre things. Seriously, this is a no-brainer.

    All of the sacred vows to fight when joining the military have been rendered null and void by the lying current US Administration..
    Hmmm . . . I have to, reluctantly, admit that this one did not make it to my desk. I hate it when that happens. Oh well, unless and until the Commandant sends something to the contrary down the chain of command, I will continue to act in accordance with my Sacred Oath. I expect those in my charge and care to do the same.

    and any one soldier who wants to walk away from Iraq(and the illegal, lie-based immoral war being waged there) should be able to say adios Middle East and head to another part of the service to perform their duty/serve their term!
    My knowledge of the Sandbox is such that I can assure you that it will most certainly be both a very LONG and an excruciatingly difficult walk. Time was--say, during my grandfather's war--deserters and insubordinates were executed for their selfish choices and deeds. A nasty business, that. Thing is, the statute still stands. War is not in any way "civil." War is what happens when everything else has failed. We would like very much to forego the whole bloody thing, but there are times when war is necessary. Warfare in any form is shockingly brutal, horrifically cruel, and utterly miserable in the extreme. If it were not, EVERYONE would be doing it.

    In the Marine Corps, EVERY hopeful recruit enters basic training secure in the knowledge that he/she--upon graduation--is first and foremost a RIFLEMAN (sexist [sic] language duly noted). It matters not that his/her MOS is musician, intel, supply, radioman: ALL Marines are Riflemen, first and foremost. Each and every one wears a medal on his/her chest attesting to the fact. Period. Such is and remains the case, regardless of whether said Marine is ordered to go to a place he/she can/cannot find on a map and then engage in mortal combat. We are not talking about Culinary Science or the Performing Arts: we are talking about Military Science and the Martial Arts—the craft of war, diplomacy by extreme means. Point being, the guy volunteered for and took a job with an organization that makes clear its mission and means of accomplishing said mission: use of military force according to established military doctrine and protocol as ordered by the Commander in Chief. Period.

    Again, what is at issue is whether this LT has the "right" to pick and choose his duty assignments: he does not. Neither does he have the "right" to pick and choose which orders he will follow. Orders are orders. That is how it works.

    There is a caveat to which veterans of combat ascribe: Beware the man who claims he can't wait to get to the action: glory seekers will get good men killed every time. The guy you want next to you is the guy who had to be dragged all the way, kicking and screaming: he has something to live for and will fight to the death to keep it.

    I'd say the LT is the epitome of the latter, and . . . huh? . . . what’s that? . . . you say he comes with lawyers? Oh, man; this is far better than a "two-fer!" I say suit 'em up! ALL of them.

    Vi
    Don't be ridiculous, Stephen: wearing a helmet does not make it "safe," and the answer is still "no."

  12. #147
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    the guy volunteered for and took a job with an organization that makes clear its mission and means of accomplishing said mission: use of military force according to established military doctrine and protocol as ordered by the Commander in Chief. Period.
    There is absolutely NO getting around this fact. Period.



    That said, why is this thread getting so nasty? It's so unnecessary. Everybody posting in this thread so far is quite intelligent. I don't know who started it & don't care, but all this mudslinging & provoking & name-calling is unpleasant & detracts from valid points being made all 'round.
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  13. #148
    Elite Member NawdleZouss's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    ^ i believe the latest information on recruiting efforts of the army states they have met their goal for 12 months now:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060609/...y_recruiting_1
    In the preceding quarter, it appeared, the Tenth Three-Year Plan's quota for bootlaces had been overfulfilled by ninety-eight per cent.

    Couldn't help myself.


    I don't have much too add, but I'll put my point of view very simply:

    War=bad.
    The armed forces fight wars.
    If you want to avoid wars, avoid the armed services.

    He's a dumbass. Perhaps a dumbass who's in the right, perhaps a brave dumbass for standing up for that, but a dumbass nevertheless. If you join the military, don't be surprised when you're called to fight. I would probably do the same thing in his position, but I'd never be in his position, because I'd never join something that risks my safety. It's a total lack of ethics, whether justified or not. That's all most people have been saying.
    2 years...

  14. #149
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by ultrafabviolet
    Hmmm . . . now that seems rather odd; however, by all means continue to criticize that which you like. "Each man kills the thing he loves," so writeth Wilde. I say, go forth with all ye might, brave soldier [sic].
    I love your peacock displays of literary gymnastics, but like patterned wallpaper: LESS IS MORE.


    It is refreshing to witness someone dedicating himself/herself to making the world a better place by keeping intelligent discourse alive, one foul-mouthed personal insult at a time. Uh . . . ya . . . that'll work. (wink, wink; nudge, nudge)
    I don't have the time or patience, which you seem to have in abundance, to sew doileys and ruffles around my content. I prefer more meat to flowery expositions signifying nothing.


    By decree of Heaven? I think not. By sovereign mandate? Highly doubtful. By law, writ, court order, or a simple show of hands? Nope.
    By my will and ability alone, requiring the consent of no one.

    And as for the continued, shrill, gratuitous use of profanity, well, that is, as they say: "The first one to raise his/her voice loses the argument." I believe we have a winner.
    I didn't realize profanity had any effect on volume. 2 entirely different concepts, made whole by you? What amazing powers you posess.


    PUNCUATE! "Mrs." is both a proper noun (capitalized) and an abbreviation (period after the last letter).
    Oh here we go, the sad spelling-nazi attack. Truly, the last gasp of those lacking a chink in otherwise flawless armor to exploit.

    As for the "Hitler's lover" reference. . . . Foremost, it is a personal attack: something you, Grimmlock, have become both increasingly free therewith and exceedingly quick to resort thereto.
    It's called an allusion, as previously stated and obviously ignored. Read up on it.

    Secondly and given the context, the verbiage is rife with anti-Semitic overtones and implications, which would classify it as a hate crime and illegal according to the laws of virtually every civilized country the world over, and in particular American, German, British, Canadian, French, and International law.
    No context has been identified, nor the ethnic origins of the 2 parties involved, nor any particular national socialist political talking points been raised. Your statement is thus, false.

    The Internet is NOT beyond the boundaries of the law and the reach of law enforcement. The authorities have been and remain very much attuned to your posts.
    Oh I'm sure the NSA, Cheney, Rumsfeld and all the rest of the governmental gargoyles would just LOVE to put me away. Secondly, one could almost infer a threat from that paragraph.. if one were so inclined

    On a brighter note, good taste and basic human decency know no bounds, and the vast majority of those who post are quite magnificent in that regard. To those of you who do not throw sand and toys, I raise my glass.
    Yes, tipping your hat to them in an obvious display will no doubt engender the more sheeplike of them to coo and dribble at your every word, while I couldn't give a shit one way or the other. Silly peacock.

    Cheers.

    That said, Moderator? A little help would be nice, please?

    Vi
    Yes indeed... Do find one rule that's been broken

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    That's what I call a high left, kick fake to the right chop and a power-right fist to the package area!

    Vi - 3
    Grimm - 0
    *chuckles at the scorecard*

    My dear, it's amazing you have such gall considering your lack of skill requires you to hide behind your intellectual superiors as they trade barbs you probably only half comprehend.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  15. #150
    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Why do I get the feeling you don't really care about the issues- only about putting down those who disagree with your distorted views of a country you secretly are jealous of.

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