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Thread: America 200 years later: sorry about that whole slavery thing

  1. #61
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Oh, I freely admit that I've done my share of sarcasm, but I've tried to stay on topic with it. And how is it convienent that I mention my former professors? You're the one that threw out this idea about talking to professors as if what I was saying was so laughable. As if your belief that the U.S. would cut checks to any minority group it wronged out of pure kindness is so believable.

    And I brought up slavery since this IS a thread about slavery. And the topics morphed into the Japanese and the Indians, and you chose to make an issue about my comment about the Japanese which led to this redundant debate. And I mentioned FDR since FDR's executive order is what led to the Japanese internment.

    By the way, the U.S. apology to Hawaii that you mentioned just so happened to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the overthrow. So, once again, another example of the U.S. attempting to make amends with a minority group motivated by external factors and not out of the goodness of their heart.

    And I also studied the trade relations between the U.S. and Japan at the time as Japan neared it's economic boom of the late 80's, and there was friction over U.S. access to Japanese markets. The U.S. & Japan reached a resolution on the matter, which benefited Japan more. But it was also around the same time the U.S. agreed to pay reparations to Japanese Americans. Not a coincidence.

    And I was never disputing the motivations behind the push for reparations to Japanese Americans. My original point has been that the U.S. doesn't try to make amends with minority groups it wronged out of kindness, but motivated by external events of the time. And in the case of the Japanese Americans, Hawaii and slavery that's been shown. Because neither Japanese American reparations or the apology to Hawaii and African Americans happened in a vacuum without external events being a factor.
    Where in this thread have I EVER stated that the US allowed reparations to the Japanese and Aleutian Americans "out of pure kindness"? Really, WHERE? I've never stated it. It's you who describes reparations as "altruistic" and such. Reparations, as I've stated numerous times, happened based on the law. Japanese Americans specifically worked to make it happen because they did not want other people's rights abridged in the same way. And one of the way to make a point legally is to go for monetary damages. It's the same reason why so many former internees are strong supporters of the ACLU. And as for the coincidence that the bill was passed when Japan was an economic superpower (sorry, the Japanese economy wasn't encountering their first boom in the 80s, that started in the 60s, Japan grew far more economically in the 60s than they did the 80s), do you credit African nations getting their independence from European nations for the passing of the civil rights bill? After all, the civil rights movement was happening at the same time! It's not like the US would want to be left behind, ya know. You scoffed at Reagan signing the 1988 bill because he was a Republican. Yet, LBJ signed the civil rights bill knowing the South would never vote Democratic for a generation. LBJ overlooked future political failures for the Democratic party to do the right thing, yet you deny that Reagan could have done the same thing since he was a "Republican."

  2. #62
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Where in this thread have I EVER stated that the US allowed reparations to the Japanese and Aleutian Americans "out of pure kindness"? Really, WHERE? I've never stated it. It's you who describes reparations as "altruistic" and such. Reparations, as I've stated numerous times, happened based on the law. Japanese Americans specifically worked to make it happen because they did not want other people's rights abridged in the same way. And one of the way to make a point legally is to go for monetary damages. It's the same reason why so many former internees are strong supporters of the ACLU. And as for the coincidence that the bill was passed when Japan was an economic superpower (sorry, the Japanese economy wasn't encountering their first boom in the 80s, that started in the 60s, Japan grew far more economically in the 60s than they did the 80s), do you credit African nations getting their independence from European nations for the passing of the civil rights bill? After all, the civil rights movement was happening at the same time! It's not like the US would want to be left behind, ya know. You scoffed at Reagan signing the 1988 bill because he was a Republican. Yet, LBJ signed the civil rights bill knowing the South would never vote Democratic for a generation. LBJ overlooked future political failures for the Democratic party to do the right thing, yet you deny that Reagan could have done the same thing since he was a "Republican."
    I've been saying over and over in this thread that you think they paid reparations 'out of the kindness or goodness of their heart' or to be altruistic and you NEVER once denied it. And NOW you want to make an issue of it? And yet again you bring up the civil rights bill?

    Japan's economy really started gaining ground in the mid-60's through industrial development. That growth continued into the 70's and started to even out and then took a hit with the oil crisis. But it still managed to expand in the late 70's. The mid-80's saw a slower growth, but the late 80's saw the economy really boom & peak because it was more demand-driven. Plus, the Japanese economy grew at a 5% rate in the late 80's compared to the 3.8% rate of U.S. economy. So, like I said Japan was hitting a major economic boom and the timing matches up.

    And I've said everything that needs to said on this point and I'm done with this topic. Seeya.
    Last edited by kingcap72; June 25th, 2009 at 10:37 PM.

  3. #63
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    I've been saying over and over in this thread that you think they paid reparations 'out of the kindness or goodness of their heart' or to be altruistic and you NEVER once denied it. And NOW you want to make an issue of it? And yet again you bring up the civil rights bill?
    Oh bullshit. I've maintained since the beginning that it was based on law. You want to skim over that point again and again because you don't have anything backing you up. It's you who think it was based on "altruism," not me. And I brought up the civil rights movement as a comparison to your ludicrous notion that the US made the 1988 civil rights bill out of regard to a minority's ancestral homeland. If that is true, then conversely Congress voting for the Civil Rights Acts in '64 and '65 can be blamed on the independence movement in Africa. Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Japan's economy really started gaining ground in the mid-60's through industrial development. That growth continued into the 70's and started to even out and then took a hit with the oil crisis. But it still managed to expand in the late 70's. The mid-80's saw a slower growth, but the late 80's saw the economy really boom & peak because it was more demand-driven. Plus, the Japanese economy grew at a 5% rate in the late 80's compared to the 3.8% rate of U.S. economy. So, like I said Japan was hitting a major economic boom and the timing matches up.
    Japan's economy has nothing to do with it. You have nothing to back you up on this as I've said over and over again. You're just playing scapegoat with Japan "economy" because one minority group received money for a moral transgression while others did not.

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