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Thread: Ad defends Mormons from gay "violence and intimidation"

  1. #16
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Actually it's a form of slavery. Being denied equality, being able to be fired (from any job in the states, depending on the state) just for being gay, not being able to get married... it's a form of societal slavery, lack of equality, of being an OTHER. It's being oppressed by a majority. Sorry my skin isn't black enough for you to see that, but frankly your skin color blinds you.

    Oh and would you please STFU with the "you're bigoted towards bigots!" argument? It's fucking asinine. it's also one of the MAIN ARGUMENTS THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT USES ANYTIME ONE OF THEIR TARGETS FIGHTS BACK. Really. Being bigoted towards those that are bigoted to you is BAD? Are you fucking insane? Maybe if they weren't bigots towards us, we wouldn't hate them for it! We wouldn't give a flying fuck about them except they are OPPRESSING PEOPLE WITH THEIR RELIGIOUS BULLSHIT.

    Really, are you loony tunes or something? Explain this complete breakdown in logic!

    You spew the same kool aid they drink and you don't even fucking realize it. Jesus christ, stop doing us any favors.
    Last edited by Grimmlok; December 15th, 2008 at 08:43 AM.
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  2. #17
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    here, maybe this will explain further why that argument is moronic:

    Is your marriage worth more than a taco?

    Yet another article about how intolerance is okay, even laudable, but intolerance of intolerance is a crime against humanity.

    Yes, it's another newspaper commentary about how bigotry against gays - unlike racism and anti-Semitism - is just another legitimate point of view, and anybody who stands up to bigots is the true bigot.

    Oh where to begin.

    This time, the victim of the gays is one Margie Christoffersen, until recently the hostess at El Coyote Mexican Cafe, a popular gay hangout in Los Angeles.

    You see, poor Margie loves the gays. But now no one likes her because all she did was take the political step of donating $100 in an effort to rip away the marriages of 20,000 of her potential customers, and deny the right to marry to the rest of them, just as Margie's intellectual forefathers did to black and white couples from the 1960s back to slavery. And to think, those horrible gay people, who have now lost their civil rights thanks to Margie, whose children have been thrown into legal limbo as a result of her bigoted political activism, yes, those uppity gay people consider their marriages more important than Margie's right to serve a taco.

    Oh, the barbarians.

    It doesn't matter if Margie's political activism was motivated by her religion. Her activism was bigoted. The Baptist church's use of the Bible to justify slavery was bigoted. The use of religion to hold women back for centuries (millenia) was bigoted. It doesn't matter if your discriminatory views are religiously-based, that doesn't exonerate them from being wrong, it doesn't prove that they're not bigoted, and it doesn't mean you can't be held be held responsible for your own public political actions.

    'God made me do it' is the latest 'dog ate my homework' in bigot circles. Yeah, well God made me write this post.

    If God is the ultimate trump card, and we're not permitted to criticize, or fight back, against those who wield God against us, then it was wrong for us, per the Catholic bishops, to vote for Obama or any Democrat who's pro-choice. It was wrong for us, per Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, to do anything pro-gay, pro-woman, or to support to the ACLU. Hell, it was wrong for the overwhelming majority of the country to chastise Falwell and Robertson for saying that gays and feminists and the ACLU caused 9/11. It was just his religious opinion, after all, and I thought that was sacrosanct?

    Spoiler warning: It's time to talk about the Nazis.

    And let's have a word about the Nazis. Oh, everyone hates invoking the Nazis, because somehow remembering the sins of the past belittles those crimes (yes, better to forget them, apparently). But if the Nazis were religiously motivated, would that make what they did okay? Or at the very least, would it make us wrong to seek retribution against them? Of course everyone says "no, it was WRONG what the Nazis did, and of course we should have punished them afterwards." Really, why? If you believe that someone should not be punished for their religious views, then why would you punish Nazis who exterminated Jews because they believed their religion demanded it - at least those Nazis who truly believed it was their calling from God to kill millions?

    In fact, we all believe that some things go too far, and that even religion can't justify everything. But we conveniently forget such rules of civility and humanity, forget that even religion isn't always a 'get out of moral condemnation free' card, when gays and lesbians are the victims.

    No one would dare suggest that religious-based racism or anti-Semitism is admirable, principled, or even tolerable. No one would be surprised if a Baptist hostess at a mostly-black-clientele restaurant were ostracized for her support of miscegenation laws. No one would question it if Jewish customers refused to visit a deli where the Christian hostess donated $100 to David Duke's run for the Senate back in the 90s. But when gays are the target, when gays fight back, somehow the old rules no longer apply. Prejudice becomes virtue and the victim becomes the oppressor.

    Then again, my Bible says something about "an eye for an eye." So maybe Margie can simply offer us one of her eyes - in the name of religious tolerance, of course. Then we'll just call it even.

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  3. #18
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Give it up, Grimm. Disagreement with your beliefs is not insanity. I hate to break it to you, but just because you see it one way doesn't negate other's perceptions.

    Gays aren't slaves. When you are working in the fields for no pay, being whipped and murdered, and declared as being on three-fifths of a person, then, and only then, will you pathetic enslavement argument hold water. Don't even attempt to use my ethnicity as an argument for my supposed bigotry. I know people from many ethnicities who support prop 8. The most openly homophobic people I know are comprised of all males, 4 white and one black. Their disdain for homosexuality is disturbing and disgusting, even to those who don't support gay marriage.

    Gays face discrimination. That does not equate to slavery. Gays can vote. Gays can hold jobs. The slave argument is an epic failure. Slaves had no rights.

    Your comments regarding religion show bigotry toward religious people, which is ridiculous. Why? Not every religious person is an opponent of gay marriage and not every opponent is religious.

    Anyone who dares disagree with you is asinine, moronic, etc., according to your arrogant stance. Get over the delusions of grandeur. You are emotionally and personally invested in this particular issue, making your reasoning quite biased.

    I've read the article, tyvm. I understand the boycott. I would not patronize a business which tried to take away women's rights, so why would I expect anyone who is LGBT to toss this woman any of their money? Conversely, if every business which had even one employee opposing gay marriage could legally refuse services to gays, thus not profiting from anyone they do not agree with, the backlash would be swift and brutal.

    I don't drink kool-aid, as my tastes have matured to more palatable beverages, although you are swimming in it. You will always see the people who don't agree with what you want as bigoted. Bigotry would go far beyond the argument over one word. Gays would have no rights whatsoever, be subjected to any and every type of assault imaginable with no recourse, and wouldn't even have the opportunity to speak out if the bigotry you so love to speak of existed.



  4. #19
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Disagreeing with equal rights for illogical reasons (religion fits in that) towards a specific group is bigotry. Period.

    Gays face discrimination. That does not equate to slavery. Gays can vote. Gays can hold jobs. The slave argument is an epic failure. Slaves had no rights.
    Gays don't actually have any rights in the workplace, wtf are you smoking. Did you miss the part where, in most states, you can get fired for it?

    Gays get beaten, bashed, tied to fences, lynched and everything under the sun.

    Gays can't get married, they do not enjoy the same marital legal protections that everyone else gets. That's being a second class citizen.

    Now, let's bring modern blacks into this: do you get whipped in a field? Are you picking cotton as a slave? When's the last time you were 1/3 of a person?

    NEVER.

    No black person today is any of those things. Your legal equality has been established.

    Do you get the right to marry? Do you get to enjoy all the legal protections gays do not?

    Yes, you do. Your legal equality has been established.

    So frankly, till you're being whipped in a field or are denied rights (which you aren't) you have absolutely no position.

    YOU ARE NOT BEING LEGALLY DENIED ANYTHING, and yet you're arguing that the people who are denying equality to another group are justified in doing so because their religion (or their own baseless homophobia) says it's alright, and how dare anybody point out that such an argument is wrong. Anybody who points out that these people are bigots (which they rightfully are) is suddenly bigoted towards bigotry? That's asinine, again.

    It's not about what I believe: it's about WHAT IS REALITY. Denying, or singling out and stripping a group of people of rights is bigotry. You cannot argue that away. ONE PARTICULAR GROUP, for illogical reasons. It's the very fucking definition of it.


    BIGOTRY: Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion: intolerance, prejudice. See like/dislike.
    You're trying to argue that being denied rights is fine, just because someone has a different position and thinks they should be denied. That's ridiculous. It doesn't matter WHAT the reasoning behind it is: it is bigotry.

    You will always see the people who don't agree with what you want as bigoted.
    That's idiotic and you know it. Stripping a group of people of rights because religion tells you to, or bcause of your own prejudice, means you're a bigot. It's the very definition of it. It's, frankly, undeniable. Yet here you are, attempting to do just that... AND, you're accusing people who are standing up against this bigotry of being bigots against the very people who are bigoted against them.

    How is that a tenable position? It defies logic in all respects. It's also the prime argument of the religious right, so in effect you agree with their position.

    That's sick.
    Last edited by Grimmlok; December 15th, 2008 at 02:48 PM.
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  5. #20
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Give it up, Grimm. Disagreement with your beliefs is not insanity. I hate to break it to you, but just because you see it one way doesn't negate other's perceptions.

    Gays aren't slaves. When you are working in the fields for no pay, being whipped and murdered, and declared as being on three-fifths of a person, then, and only then, will you pathetic enslavement argument hold water. Don't even attempt to use my ethnicity as an argument for my supposed bigotry. I know people from many ethnicities who support prop 8. The most openly homophobic people I know are comprised of all males, 4 white and one black. Their disdain for homosexuality is disturbing and disgusting, even to those who don't support gay marriage.

    Gays face discrimination. That does not equate to slavery. Gays can vote. Gays can hold jobs. The slave argument is an epic failure. Slaves had no rights.

    Your comments regarding religion show bigotry toward religious people, which is ridiculous. Why? Not every religious person is an opponent of gay marriage and not every opponent is religious.

    Anyone who dares disagree with you is asinine, moronic, etc., according to your arrogant stance. Get over the delusions of grandeur. You are emotionally and personally invested in this particular issue, making your reasoning quite biased.

    I've read the article, tyvm. I understand the boycott. I would not patronize a business which tried to take away women's rights, so why would I expect anyone who is LGBT to toss this woman any of their money? Conversely, if every business which had even one employee opposing gay marriage could legally refuse services to gays, thus not profiting from anyone they do not agree with, the backlash would be swift and brutal.

    I don't drink kool-aid, as my tastes have matured to more palatable beverages, although you are swimming in it. You will always see the people who don't agree with what you want as bigoted. Bigotry would go far beyond the argument over one word. Gays would have no rights whatsoever, be subjected to any and every type of assault imaginable with no recourse, and wouldn't even have the opportunity to speak out if the bigotry you so love to speak of existed.
    What's up with the slavery references? Slavery was ended in the US in the nineteenth century, not racisim.

  6. #21
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I like how "equal rights" is suddenly a "belief", like religion, and the obvious implication that not everybody is deserving of them.

    Equal rights are not a 'belief'.. there should not be a CHOICE about it. It is not something to be decided, it is something that should BE. Period.

    I don't get it.. being against equality is suddenly a fine, or even commendable stance? That's revolting.
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  7. #22
    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post

    Gays aren't slaves. When you are working in the fields for no pay, being whipped and murdered, and declared as being on three-fifths of a person, then, and only then, will you pathetic enslavement argument hold water. Don't even attempt to use my ethnicity as an argument for my supposed bigotry. I know people from many ethnicities who support prop 8. The most openly homophobic people I know are comprised of all males, 4 white and one black. Their disdain for homosexuality is disturbing and disgusting, even to those who don't support gay marriage.

    Gays face discrimination. That does not equate to slavery. Gays can vote. Gays can hold jobs. The slave argument is an epic failure. Slaves had no rights.

    Your comments regarding religion show bigotry toward religious people, which is ridiculous. Why? Not every religious person is an opponent of gay marriage and not every opponent is religious.

    Anyone who dares disagree with you is asinine, moronic, etc., according to your arrogant stance. Get over the delusions of grandeur. You are emotionally and personally invested in this particular issue, making your reasoning quite biased.

    I've read the article, tyvm. I understand the boycott. I would not patronize a business which tried to take away women's rights, so why would I expect anyone who is LGBT to toss this woman any of their money? Conversely, if every business which had even one employee opposing gay marriage could legally refuse services to gays, thus not profiting from anyone they do not agree with, the backlash would be swift and brutal.

    I don't drink kool-aid, as my tastes have matured to more palatable beverages, although you are swimming in it. You will always see the people who don't agree with what you want as bigoted. Bigotry would go far beyond the argument over one word. Gays would have no rights whatsoever, be subjected to any and every type of assault imaginable with no recourse, and wouldn't even have the opportunity to speak out if the bigotry you so love to speak of existed.

    same shit different day, lol. btw within the last couple of days a man was beaten to death for walking arm in arm with his brother, some thugs passing by thought he was gay, and jumped out and attacked. What was it you were saying about being subject to assault with no recourse? Oh, that's right, you are making the disingenuous argument that African Americans went straight from slavery to now without fighting the same battles for civil rights that gays have, so there was that in-between part of acquiring recourse, much like how Stonewall era glbt people fought against laws that said they could be arrested for not wearing at least three items of clothing specific to their gender. In instances like these and in nightclub raids gays were rounded up, beaten, raped, tortured, etc by police, in addition to what they faced in every day life. Many have been murdered and we will never, ever hear their stories. So sad that in surviving the horrors of slavery so many African Americans have allowed themselves to be poisoned by the same religious b.s. that was used to justify their enslavement. I can imagine the kind of mental gymnastics it takes for you to keep that contradiction in place so you just keep on keepin' on with it, it's probably the best that you can do with your limited perception skills. It's against my better judgement to post to you since I believe Obama was right about not trying to put lipstick on a pig, or bigot as the case may be, but you can't even seem to pick a lane as far as what you are arguing about. Seems like you've switched gears to defending civil unions vs marriage, (which is sanctioned by the state and performed in a church, not vice versa) . Keep spinning.

    This:

    Anyone who dares disagree with you is asinine, moronic, etc., according to your arrogant stance. Get over the delusions of grandeur. You are emotionally and personally invested in this particular issue, making your reasoning quite biased.

    Is one of the most blatant examples of projection I've ever seen. Thanks for the belly laugh.

    If the sunlight every breaks through that thick cloud of illogic you might be able to see the patterns in behavior of subject/object group opression that repeat over and over and over again throughout history, regardless of any of the isms (sex, gender, culture, whatever). They are "you worship the wrong (or false, or inferior, etc) god"/ "you are sexually perverse"/"you are unclean-unsanitary-diseased"/"you are less intelligent". I'm sure there are a few more but those are the main ones that cultures use to deny rights, claim superiority, enslave, colonialize, what have you, very little variation on those themes, regardless of who is the recipient. If you would pull back and look at the very big picture you might be able to see that...I have very little hope that that will ever happen for you, sadly. Be sure to put lots of thought into your reply to me, and take a long time and lots of big words to make your point. Talk about how superior and smart you are, and all that usual stuff. I have a final to study for, but I'm sure some other folks will enjoy reading it (and maybe even get high off the fumes).

  8. #23
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    I never said you couldn't be fired for being gay. I said gays could have jobs. I love the way words are twisted.

    I didn't refer to being gay as being slavery. Really, read the posts and attribute that mention to the proper poster.

    Again, it doesn't matter to me how angry you are or what you feel. You may say whatever you want, but the fact remains, regardless of how you argue your stance, the laws haven't changed.

    I am sure if I were lesbian or bi, I would feel more as Grimm does, as this subject would hit closer to home and enrich my life and I would have a different view completely.

    Moving on. The issue is in hibernation for now.



  9. #24
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Grimm & ymeman, that^ sounds like a total capitulation to your posts above.

  10. #25
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    No, it isn't until people realize that prejudice, religious or otherwise, used to rip rights away or deny them outright to a specific group of people, is bigotry.

    Denying it doesn't make it less so. The issue does not rest.

    It's not a capitulation, it's "I'm not going to talk about it anymore because i can't justify my argument in any logical manner".

    There hasn't been anything logical so far. Why start now.
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  11. #26
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    ^I can't argue with that.

    Still no explanation on the ramblings regarding slavery and the fraction of a person argument. But then, it's hard to be logical about an illogical argument!

  12. #27
    Elite Member B.C.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I like how "equal rights" is suddenly a "belief", like religion, and the obvious implication that not everybody is deserving of them.

    Equal rights are not a 'belief'.. there should not be a CHOICE about it. It is not something to be decided, it is something that should BE. Period.

    I don't get it.. being against equality is suddenly a fine, or even commendable stance? That's revolting.
    Makes sense to me

    Maybe if they weren't bigots towards us, we wouldn't hate them for it!
    Kinda hard to like someone that hates on you.

  13. #28
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Capitulation? Wallow in delusions.

    There is no reason to argue for or against gay marriage here, especially with those who are directly affected by that situation. If someone does not agree with gay marriage, even while supporting civil unions, the label bigot placed on the person's chest.

    Why even debate this issue here anymore? It's been beaten to death. The decisions have been made. It's done.

    If it makes you feel better to insult me, do so. Those propositions don't affect me, and neither do your words.




  14. #29
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    someone does not agree with gay marriage, even while supporting civil unions, the label bigot placed on the person's chest.
    Separate is not equal. Riding in the back of the bus is not acceptable. We are not thankful that we are allowed on the bus at all. You'd think a black person would know that.
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    To me that was the greatest irony of the whole Prop 8 vote. That a group of people who were so proud that one of their own had suddenly achieved the highest office in the land , could at the same time vote to deny another group the same freedoms and civil liberties that the african americans had fought so hard to achieve for themselves. The ultimate hypocricy. Let's not forget that not so long ago, a black man could not marry a white woman like Obama's parents. To me this is such a simple issue. The 14th Amendment to the US Constitution reads "Nor shall any State deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws'. Period. No exceptions. This quite frankly is the basis for when they appeal to the Supreme Court.

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