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Thread: Rethinking Zionism

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    Default Rethinking Zionism


    Dana Goldstein, whose thoughtful condemnation of the Gaza slaughter after years of reserve I welcome, is a little uncomfortable with the embrace. She points out that I have identified myself as a non- or anti-Zionist, and says that anti-Zionism is redolent of antisemitism. She's a post-Zionist, she says. Goldstein's comments deserve a response, especially at this moment in intellectual life, when so many people are crowding the doorways of this conversation.

    I also used to say post- or non-Zionist to avoid being negative. The playwright David Zellnik told me that anti-Zionist felt to him like a denial of Israel's considerable achievements and I respected David's view. Now I've come to say that I'm an anti-Zionist for several reasons.

    First: My feelings are not neutral about Zionism; I don't like it. As a Jew, I think about it a lot and there is nothing I can really feel positive about outside of the Jewish pride and its historical significance of it and its visionary component. All these elements have lost their value: Zionism privileges Jews and justifies oppression, and this appalls me. Saying I'm anti-Zionist is a sincere expression of my minority-respecting worldview.

    Second, Post-Zionist strikes me as an evasion. At this moment, Zionism reigns in historical Palestine and in American Jewish leadership. To say you're a post-Zionist is like saying you're a post-Communist during the Stalin purges. You are tastefully separating yourself from the world, dainty as an English person drinking tea with their little finger in the air. Zionism remains a very powerful force in Middle East affairs and American society. It's not helpful to those who are trying to understand these matters to evade this fact or suggest that post-Zionism is actually a real factor in, say, the life of Gaza City. I urge people to take a stand if they find Zionist beliefs that privilege 6 million Jews over 5-6 million non-Jews and that have entailed apartheid on the West Bank and ethnic cleansing a supportable ideology, especially in the age of our mutt president-to-be.

    Third, anti-Zionism is an idealistic Jewish tradition. In fact, it draws on the same visionary and If-you-dream-it feeling that Zionism did 100 years ago, before the militants ruined it, and engages the same young restless sensibilities and liberationist feeling as Zionism did by imagining Israel as a state of its citizens, not a Jewish state. We anti-Zionists can say with honor that anti-Zionists like Rabbi Elmer Berger identified the problems with Zionism 60 years ago, accurately when he said that Zionism meant contempt for the Arab population, dependence on a backroom lobby in the United States, and the introduction of dual loyalty into American Jewish life. All true. Hannah Arendt and Walter Benjamin and Norman Mailer all opposed Zionism to one degree or another out of concerns with ethnocentrism--didn't like its Is-it-good-for-the-Jews backbeat. These problems are larger today than ever, especially post-Iraq-war and the Iraq war's idiot stepson, Gaza.

    Finally, declaring I'm anti-Zionist is a way of trying to make room in American life for this view. Right now being critical of Israel means that you can hurt your business, as a Bay Area professional told the San Francisco Chronicle. True and disgusting. As Jimi Hendrix said when he was changing attitudes: I'm going to wave my freak flag high!

    As to the antisemitism point, the American Jewish Committee has said the same thing: anti-Zionism is antisemitism. It thus conflates Jewishness with Zionism, and this conflation is damaging the Jewish experience around the world. When Dana says she worries about the antisemitic suggestion of anti-Zionism, I feel a shadow of censoriousness. There are things you can and can't say. Well, I am an empowered Jew who has never experienced functional antisemitism ever in my life, and my empowerment is also part of this conversation: I insist on speaking about Jewish cultural/financial power in the U.S. as a component of my Zionist critique. Do I think that Jews should be denied power? No! Do I think that there should be quotas on Jewish inclusion in elite institutions? No! Well: I would like Jewish participation in mainstream media roundtables on the Middle East held to 50 percent. That is my quota. These ideas have made some of my readers uncomfortable. They've made me uncomfortable. I grew up in fear of lurking antisemitism. But I have decided in my 50s that these are things I think about all the time as a mature person, however flawed I am, and I think they're important--so I am going to talk about them.

    And I would add that shutting down debate in the name of "antisemitism" strikes me as selfish. Our phantom worries about a second Holocaust take precedence over the real evidence that surrounds us of man's inhumanity to man, not just man's inhumanity to Jews. And our phantom worries mean that we cannot address the incredible, everyday, real suffering of Palestinians that has been perpetrated politically in large part by empowered American Jews who are all over the media and political establishment, some of whom limit debate of the issue by citing a possible infraction of our tremendous freedoms. Believe me, when our freedoms are encroached upon, I will howl. Today and tomorrow I howl for the Jewish leadership's actual crushing of the Palestinian right of self-determination.
    Philip Weiss: Rethinking Zionism
    I agree with much of what he says since it's primarily what led me to do a turn-about per Israel and its policies.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

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    butty, didn't you know that simply discussing the issue means you're anti-semitic? You hate Jews just for posting this.

    I will not hear another word from you, or else I'll bring up the holocaust.
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    i know a lot of jews that have mixed or negative feelings about zionism.
    as a history professor of mine pointed out, zionism is a nationalism just like any other.

    an israeli guy i know says he wishes israel could be a secular country and blames religion in general and specifically the right-wing zionists and the ultra-conservative fundamentalist jews for a lot of the problems in the middle east and says that has a lot to do with why they haven't found a solution for the israel-palestine conflict.
    just like arab nationalism is wreaking havoc in the arab world, zionism is also a dangerous ideology.
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    Well you hate jews too. Jewhater.
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    butty, didn't you know that simply discussing the issue means you're anti-semitic? You hate Jews just for posting this.

    I will not hear another word from you, or else I'll bring up the holocaust.
    The Holocaust? You mean the one where gays, mentally ill and gypsies were murdered alongside Jews but rarely get mentioned, something I find appalling?
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
    --Sinclair Lewis

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    Yes! The very thing where gays, the handicapped and whoever else were treated WORSE than Jews but are never, ever mentioned!

    I'm going to pull the holocaust card now, and go bomb some country.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    http://www.raceandhistory.com/selfnews/viewnews.cgi?newsid1037324713,24836,.shtml

    Israel and White Supremacy
    Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2002

    by Aaron Michael Love

    In 1945 Jan Smuts, then prime minister of South Africa appealed to the UN for an article on human rights to be included in the United Nations Charter. This incident, cited in W.E.B Du Bois's remarkable book The World and Africa, is a powerful reminder of the contradiction in the European conception of freedom. Freedom only applies absolutely to the white man, temporarily excluding the complications of class and of course, gender. Du Bois argued that the Atlantic slave trade produced this schism materially and culturally, although its origins no doubt go much farther back in European history. He concludes, "nothing so vividly illustrates the twisted contradiction of thought in the minds of white men."

    Much ink has been spilled bemoaning the Zionist lobby in the United States. The success of this lobby in the Washington and media establishment, in terms of its limited objectives, is no doubt spectacular. However, it is a strange success, which has made strange bedfellows when considering the history of anti-Jewish racism in the U.S. After all, how could such a lobby hold sway over the Christian Right, Waspish conservative think tanks and a Congress filled with southern gentlemen?

    The answer is the Zionist organizations do not hold sway over anyone and to imply otherwise, as some do, has the unintended consequence of flirting on the margins of a major Fascist conceit. Instead, the answer can be found in the history of white supremacy and imperialism within the United States and Europe themselves. In other words, Zionist Apartheid is seen as an old fashioned war on people of color and, as such is perfectly attune to the historical psyche of white America. Rather than trying to "liberate" American foreign policy from Zionist influence, I think it would be much more fruitful to ask why Americans, particularly the political, business class, and certain sectors of the white middle class, love Israel so much.

    In an indispensable article, "Antisemitism: Real and Imagined", Tim Wise writes, "Zionism is a form of white supremacy". There are few places where Zionism is placed firmly within the operation of whiteness, though it has been indirectly touched on many times before, most notably in discussions of the relationship between Ashkenazi and Sephardim and Mizrahim Jews in Israel. Indeed, as one Israeli Black Panther put it in 1972, "We must reach a situation in which we shall fight together with the Arabs against the establishment. We are the only ones who can constitute a bridge of peace with the Arabs in the context of a struggle against the establishment." Zionism, like white supremacy, albeit in different keys, is a war against savage Arabs and only a less savage Arab and African Jew.

    My experience as a divestment and solidarity organizer over the last couple of years has brought me first hand knowledge of the Zionist paradox in the Jewish community. More than once, young Jews approached us, confessing they struggle to maintain a Jewish identity outside of whiteness, revealing young minds trying to grasp with the irony of an alliance between Jews and White Supremacy. Micah Bazant has spoken of "the Jewish establishment" giving "tremendous lip-service to the concern of Jewish assimilation" but instead contributes "to assimilation of the worst kind." He explains, "they claim to value real Jewish traditions of social justice and tikkun olam, but in fact they have sold out and assimilated to U.S. values of capitalism, racism and imperialism."

    Zionism developed in a time of reinvigorated white supremacy in the latter part of the nineteenth century when European states were busily dividing up the land of Africa and Asia. In the confrontation with the indigenous people of Palestine, its ideology belongs within the history of European racial theories and, like the Afrikaner ideology of Jan Smuts, has little problem with seeing itself in the forefront of democracy and civilization in the Middle East while at the same time implementing and justifying the complete and utter subjugation of one its most prominent people.

    However, to understand Israel/Palestine as defined systematically by racial oppression has yet to be elaborated on its own. This is odd, given that the racial oppression of the Palestinian people is at the heart of the matter; all other things--land laws, religion, pass laws, racially designated roads and neighborhoods, etc.--are symptoms. This should not come as any surprise: the racial definition of the Zionist project existed from the very beginning. Theodor Herzel in his 1896 pamphlet "The Jewish State" wrote it would "form a part of a wall of defense for Europe in Asia, an outpost of civilization against barbarism." This is the same Herzel who stated that Zionist colonization would be "representatives of Western civilization," bringing "cleanliness, order and the well-established customs of the Occident to this plague-ridden, blighted corner of the Orient." Recall Chomsky memorably quoting Chaim Weizmann, first president of Israel, as saying of Palestine, "there are several hundred thousand negroes there but that this matter has no significance."

    How little has changed. With the African liberation movements abroad and the civil rights struggle at home, the white supremacist war on African people has entered a new stage, but the war on the Arab has found its triumphant moment. In that story we hear about the Arab resistance to modernity in the infamous "Arab street", mitigated, of course, by friendly but nervous ruling classes. In the stirring street, like in the Intifada, we are told you find the irrational and the superstitious, not a working toward self-determination and freedom. And who holds the key to holding back this self-evident preternatural violence of the Palestinian and the Arab? Whether it is Bernard Lewis, the New York Times, the Heritage Foundation, Al Gore, the ADL or American Jewish Council Ads on Fox News, the answer is the Zionist State. Counterpoised to the Arab and the Palestinian in particular there is democracy, technology, Judeo-Christian values, the opera and shopping malls. Apartheid Palestine/Israel is necessary exactly because the Palestinian rejects all of these things. They hate "us". Unfortunately, the more honest imperialists say, this is a world of civilization and barbarism: Israel the white European nation in a sea of dark savagery.

    That Israel should be in the vanguard of whiteness is actually a credit to the more than five decade old Palestinian struggle. The Palestinian struggle is on the fault-line of freedom and oppression and, as such, is in the forefront of the struggle against white supremacy and imperialism in the world today. Is it any wonder that the white supremacist imperialists holler the most when Palestine/Israel is brought up? It is exactly here that their "twisted contradiction" is most likely to be exposed. Apartheid Israel/Palestine is just another solution to the "problem of the color line." It is a solution that did not begin in 1948 but some 400 years ago and is still with us very much today.

    Indeed, we have the rulers of the "western" world as proof. The idea of a Zionist lobby duping State Department officials, ignorant Congress people, the EU or UN bureaucrats, ignores the role of white supremacy. This complicates the popular Leftist view that America and Europe's largely unconditional support of the Zionist state is like a functional balance sheet: tallying the price between keeping a bully on the Middle East block, "a strategic asset", and bad relations with the wider Arab public. We should recall what Du Bois was trying to tell the Left in his day: race and class are not separable categories in modern world history.

    But the implications go beyond the exigencies of Leftist anti-imperialism to the heart of the Palestinian struggle and solidarity itself. Typically, Palestine/Israel is argued in terms of an abstract discourse of "human rights", "UN resolutions", and "international law". This is problematic on several grounds. First, on a psychological level, the basic effrontery of Apartheid to human dignity is lost. On a more practical level, most Americans do not connect immediately to the Palestinian struggle because the direct connections to their historical experience are not revealed or emphasized. Further, rights, laws and resolutions bring a kind of equivalence to the Palestinian and Jewish experience in Israel/Palestine. The Zionist state can cite almost as many rights, laws and resolutions as their opponents. Even worse the application of these things, like the UN itself, is dominated by the United States. What is missing is a sense of right and wrong, of abnormality, and a lack of understanding the deep connections of the Palestinian struggle with the operation of the American historical psyche.

    The importance of understanding white supremacy could also be important for the Palestinian struggle in Palestine/Israel. Israel Shahak wrote in his brilliant article:

    "Analysis of Israeli policies: the priority of the ideological factor," that eventually, "the Palestinians are bound to perceive themselves first and foremost as victims of Israeli legal discrimination, applied against them by virtue of their being non-Jews. When this occurs, Israel's domestic and international position can be expected to become highly unstable."

    Oppression-political, economic, legal, cultural-on the basis of race is what most intimately connects all Palestinians, at a most basic level, living throughout Palestine/Israel. If Shahak's observation is politically formulated and used in a struggle to trump the Zionist, white supremacist vision and enforcement of separation and expropriation, meanwhile coupled with an effective solidarity campaign to politically and economically isolate Israel, the Zionist state will eventually "become highly unstable" indeed.

    I do not think this can be overstated at this time. Like the U.S. commitment to Israel, the Zionist commitment to the West Bank and Gaza exists over and above balance sheet considerations. Returning to Shahak's article, a particular passage is worth quoting in full:

    "In other words, empirical evidence (valid as anything in politics can be valid) shows that Israeli policies are primarily ideologically motivated and that the ideology by which they are motivated is totalitarian in nature. This ideology can be easily known since it is enshrined in the writings of the founders of Labor Zionism, and it can be easily inferred from Israeli laws, regulations and pursued policies. Those who, like Arafat, his henchmen and most Palestinian intellectuals, have through all these years failed to make an intellectual effort to seriously study this ideology, have only themselves to blame for being stunned by all the developments of the 20 months after Oslo."

    As I have tried to briefly lay out, the Zionist Apartheid project finds its force and appeal through its own conception of whiteness, not because Zionist organizations find better ways to get the ear of the white man. It is fully assimilated into this framework and all of its self-justification refers back to the matrix of white supremacy and empire. One cannot battle Zionism without battling white supremacy and the U.S. establishment--they are intimately linked. Seeking the ear of the establishment without speaking the truth about their racism underestimates their psychological and historical relationship with Apartheid. This means a solidarity built on an alliance with those who have been in the forefront of fighting white supremacy.

    The brilliance of Du Bois's book is to show exactly how the "West" can be for human rights and for an unrelenting war on Arabs and, in particular, Palestinians. It explains how Jan Smuts in Du Bois's day or Shimon Peres in ours can lecture us on "human rights" and get away with it. Perhaps, most importantly, white supremacy reframes the Palestinian struggle in a historical continuum that better explains the reflexive support among a broad swathe of the American and European public for the Zionist adventure. It equally reframes it within a tradition that has deep reserves for overcoming the contradictions of race, freedom and oppression in European and American history with universal ideas of equality, democracy and fraternity, previously only thought available to the white man.

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    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    The Holocaust? You mean the one where gays, mentally ill and gypsies were murdered alongside Jews but rarely get mentioned, something I find appalling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Yes! The very thing where gays, the handicapped and whoever else were treated WORSE than Jews but are never, ever mentioned!

    I'm going to pull the holocaust card now, and go bomb some country.
    This has always bothered me too but I was too scared to say anything. I remember talking to my friend's niece once and she told me that in her class they were learning about the Holocaust. I said it was a terrible thing that so many people perished, that we need to learn from that to make sure history doesn't repeat itself. She said something along the lines of, yeah its terrible that Jews were so persecuted. Just on a hunch, I said, a lot of people died also, you know that right? Like the gypsies and the polish and the handicapped and the homosexuals? They taught you that in class, right? She just looked at me and asked, they all died in the Holocaust? I thought the Nazis didn't like the Jewish people. I told her the Nazis didn't like many people, and that the Holocaust actually started by the extermination of the mentally and physically handicapped. I was pretty irritated that her teacher glossed over that fact, it was like rewriting history. I'm not sure why in the last twenty years, its like the Jews owned the Holocaust exclusively. It really does a disservice to all of those who died. Although Grimm, I'm not sure you can say that any one group was treated worse than the others during the Holocaust, they all met a grim fate. Although it does turn my stomach the way they used the mentally handicapped as science experiments.
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    No, we were treated worse. We were prime targets for experiments. We were considered lower than even the jews.. basically garbage. Jews were 'subhuman', we were lower. Mengele had lots of fun with gays.

    The only thing we took from the holocaust was the pink triangle. We turned into a symbol of strength.
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    Rod Liddle, in The Spectator, on the crazed, quasi-fascist evangelicals in Britain and America who believe war in Gaza heralds the Second Coming of Christ. It's a bit long but worth reading as it's an interesting point. And he's very funny.

    It being the new year and all, I thought I’d introduce you to some new mentalists, just in case you’re getting bored with the old mentalists. These new ones are the people watching the disquieting events unfold in Gaza with what might properly be called rapture.

    I use the word ‘rapture’ advisedly. As in ‘for yea, the rapture cometh’. And those shells landing on Gaza are to be welcomed, of course, for they are bringing the day ever closer.

    There was a trip to Jerusalem last week undertaken by a bunch of British Christian evangelicals — by coincidence, just as the Israelis began lobbing rockets into Gaza. They hadn’t planned it like that, although retrospectively they may claim to have seen it. The whole shebang was described as a ‘New Year’s Prophetic Summons’ and the organisers were, in the main, American evangelical Christian Zionists, but there were plenty of Brits in attendance.

    You may be familiar with this little by-way of religious fervour, this rather bizarre cul-de-sac of supernaturally imposed bigotry — partly because it has helped determine US government policy towards the Middle East for 30-odd years. These are the militant end-time Christians who are, indeed, yearning for the end. It was all foreseen — a final conflagration between the Antichrist in the blue corner (that’ll be the Muslims, then) and the forces of Christianity in the red, with the Jews looking a bit askance in the middle, unless they have returned to the fold, in which case they’re OK. The blurb for this latest trip — which involved conferences, walking the ramparts of Jerusalem and urging hellfire upon the recusant Mohammedans — reads as follows: ‘The days are shortening as Messiah’s coming approaches. Jesus’ identity with His own people is a progressive national revelation as Israelis increasingly realise that Yeshua was one of them, that he died in identification with them as Lamb of God...’ Then there’s some Bible stuff explaining how and why the apocalypse is coming.


    You may well know all about these people, as I say: the Christians who, for their own reasons, are more Zionist than even the Zionists. The latest bunch, however, are even more mental and include growing numbers of British evangelicals among their howling throng. It is no longer just the backwoods denizens of the mid-Appalachians who believe this stuff. Britain is on-board too these days — hallelujah!

    The latest trip to Jerusalem was organised by a woman called Christine Darg, who operates out of Richmond, Virginia. Christine’s a star turn. She created the excellent Elvis Gospel Ministries, which preaches the word of God to semi-sentient people using the music of His chosen son, Elvis Presley. Back in 1998 she set up a webcam overlooking Jerusalem’s Golden Gate, pointed directly at the spot at which she wholly expected Jesus Christ would materialise in the very near future. Or, given the passage of time which has elapsed since His unexpected and lamentable failure to turn up, the not-that-near future. The webcam has been taken down recently because people other than Jesus keep appearing on it, mooning, larking around and being rude and stuff.

    So far, then, so whacko. But Christine — a big peroxide blonde with one of those scary Jesus-loves-you smiles — has her finger in a number of pies, not all of them quite so harmless. She is the chief sponsor and supporter of an organisation based in Texas called Battalion of Deborah, for example. This magnificently named organisation, which sounds more like a landfill indie band than a Christian campaigning group, is devoted to kicking the Palestinians out of something it refers to as ‘greater Israel’. Or, as they put it on their website, ‘resettle Palestinian refugees to the lands of their Arab kinsmen’. By refugees they mean all of them, except maybe the Christian ones, if they shut up and behave themselves. The Battalion of Deborah is opposed to all possible peace settlements with the Palestinians, regardless or not of whether the settlements are drawn up by Israeli politicians. Israel is for the Jews, all of it, even the bits which are not within Israeli boundaries today. ‘The land of Israel is promised by God to the Jewish people,’ they state, with the certitude of those whose frontal lobes have been unduly tampered with.


    Debbie’s people are much more extreme than anyone you might find in Likud, for example. Indeed, they ally themselves to far-right members of the Knesset, and to the ultra-Zionist and quasi-fascist Jewish nationalist groups, some of which have ties with Zionist terrorist organisations. At a recent conference proudly attended by Battalion of Deborah, one speaker was the lawyer who represented the illegal terrorist group Gush Emunim Underground (that’s another bloody indie band, isn’t it, now I come to think about it?), which murdered Palestinians in Hebron.

    There are also links with the even more extreme Kach Kahane (sounds more like electro-pop, that one), whose spiritual mentor, the late Rabbi Kahane, is spoken of approvingly by both Battalion of Deborah and its sister organisation, the majestically whacko ‘Covenant Alliances’, also based way down south in the USA. Kach Kahane murdered Palestinians and also American Jews whom it considered to be appeasers. In their book, Ariel Sharon was a bit of a lily-livered pinko appeaser, tearing down one or two of those illegal settlements.

    These Battalion of Deborah monkeys also wish to build a new embassy in Jerusalem and indeed a ‘third temple’ to prepare for his coming. In the past these groups have been lauded and honoured by the Knesset for their unwavering support of Israel; however, of late, even the hawkish Israelis are beginning to find them ludicrous and dangerous. And, indeed, embarrassing — last year the Battalion of Deborah, the Covenant Alliance and others presented themselves to the Knesset with a letter offering repentance for Christian anti-Semitism and begging to kiss the feet of Jews. Most MKs shuffled off looking a bit sheepish and the evangelicals were left to strut their stuff before the usual loony-tune politicians.


    This lot were expecting the rapture to occur on the stroke of midnight, 1 January 2000, but all they got was Andy Stewart and a concert at the Millennium Dome. They were even more hopeful a couple of years ago when Israel went to war with the Hezbollah in Lebanon. One allied website at the time contained the following posts: ‘I am excited beyond words that the struggle of my life may finally be over soon and I can finally be freeeeeeeeeee!’, and then there was this: ‘...let the enemy know the alarm has been sounded and Yeshua is stepping onto the battlefield...’.

    You can read more of that kind of stuff at the Rapture Ready! website, along with an interesting piece suggesting that President-elect Barack Obama is the reincarnation of the Antichrist, as foretold in the Bible, what with him being a pinko black fella and all. As it happened, the Israeli invasion of the Lebanon left the rapture monkeys — and, uh, Israel — a little crestfallen, a little bit down in the mouth, just like on New Year’s Day 2000. But they’re sure it’s going to happen now, this rapture business. And they will do their little bit to help things along, supporting illegal settlements on the West Bank and so on, cheering from the ramparts of Jerusalem.

    Does any of this matter? These people are clearly madder than a box of frogs and cannot possibly be of any resonance, any real consequence, in the wider geopolitical scene, can they? And it is good news, surely, that even the Israelis have had enough of their ministrations, their letters of apology, their support for a form of Zionism which even the Israeli government considers racist and extreme. And not all Christian Zionists oppose peace settlements with the Palestinians and yearn, without cessation, for Armageddon.


    Well, they have had a lot of influence, both the extremists who returned home from their Jerusalem jaunt last week and the marginally more moderate of them. Douad Abdullah from the Muslim Council of Britain reckons that the evangelical Christian Zionists in the United States number something in the region of 25 million people. It was the Jimmy Carter presidency which saw them emerge from the woodwork with a powerful voice — Carter himself being a southern Baptist, of course. The Christian Zionists had their strongest advocate seven or eight years later in the form of Pat Robertson, whom you may remember with the slightly wistful fondness with which one recalls, say, Arthur Scargill or Oswald Mosley. Robertson’s speeches still litter the Christian Zionist websites, along with adverts for his ludicrous books.

    But what worries me more, partly out of an undoubtedly misplaced sense of national pride, was my old belief that no matter how deranged our lower-than-lower church smiters and rapturers might be, they would never quite reach the level which you might find in the general area of the Tennessee River Valley. Gone, gone, I fear. Evangelical Christianity, in its ever more fabulously literal and authoritarian marque, is Britain’s fastest-growing repository for spiritual belief. And it follows that its mutant offshoot, Christian Zionism, is growing apace too. That should worry all of us, regardless of whether right now we’re cheering on Hamas or Israel.
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    These people need to be shot. Quite honestly. I want to Final Solution the lot of them. I wouldn't blink twice at gassing the shit out of them and dumping them in a field. They're a deranged cancer.

    There should be some kind of test you need to pass in order to qualify as a decent member of society. This shit would see you fail and be relegated to garbage duty for your life, kept nicely away from sane people.
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    I think that the holocaust is about money nowdays, that's why the jews want it for themselves, they are still getting money from it, none of the other victims are getting anything.

    I also don't know why the black slavery thing is such a big thing, maybe because it was so recent? 40% of europeans were slaves during the viking era, there aren't any nations that haven't been slaves at some point and there are still slaves, but no one seems to be as interested about that. The situation with slaves in the east is horrifying.

    As for palestine, I do have to say that I think that the jews have the right to the land, the romans were behind the diaspora and the palestinian people came to live there after the romans evicted the jews.

    Both the slavery thing and the zionism are such taboos.

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    Well, during Holocaust remembrance services in Poland a few years ago a militant gay pal of mine went there with a bunch of other poltically active gay pals and tried to have gays mentioned in the services or jsut mentioned anywhere at all. They were beaten and arrested. And very few in the media even noticed.
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    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    Well, during Holocaust remembrance services in Poland a few years ago a militant gay pal of mine went there with a bunch of other poltically active gay pals and tried to have gays mentioned in the services or jsut mentioned anywhere at all. They were beaten and arrested. And very few in the media even noticed.
    Fuck, this is just....well, I'm not surprised, I'm sad to say.
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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    poland. enough said.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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