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Thread: Proposition 8 supporters vent frustration over continued protests

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    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Default Proposition 8 supporters vent frustration over continued protests

    Proposition 8 supporters vent frustration over continued protests - Los Angeles Times

    (here's an interactive map that shows how different counties and cities voted, very interesting stuff:
    Proposition 8 and Proposition 22: A tale of two votes - Los Angeles Times)

    Some backers in Orange County, where the measure was passed by a larger margin than statewide, feel that the people's will was expressed at the polls and should be upheld.
    By Joe Mozingo


    November 11, 2008

    From his living room in Leisure World in Seal Beach, Larry Black has watched the anti-Proposition 8 protests on his TV. He's read about the legal challenges to overturn the measure. And he has a thought.

    "It's ridiculous," said Black, 66. "It's the people's vote. . . . That's the way it should be. That's it."

    Voters in Orange County passed the measure banning gay marriage last week by a margin of 14 percentage points, a larger victory than statewide.

    On Main Street in Seal Beach on Monday, a sampling of supporters vented their frustration over the contentious issue dragging on after a clear win at the polls.

    They related arguments made before the election -- gay marriage would lead to laws permitting polygamy or bestiality, and that it goes against the "natural order." (the same tired reasoning here again)

    And they grumbled that the people's will, as expressed in the voting booth, has been thwarted by California courts before.

    Black and two of his friends had ridden their bikes from the Leisure World retirement community to Main Street to get some exercise and breathe in the ocean air by the pier.

    Black says he believes homosexuals are born gay, have no choice in the matter and should be able to live how they want.

    But the three friends said marriage is inherently between a man and a woman, and that widening the definition would put society on a path toward a murky kind of relativism, where traditional standards of morality disappear in a live-and-let-live atmosphere.

    "You have to draw the line in the sand somewhere," said Mike Mooney, 60.

    Mooney fears the measure will be killed in the courts like Proposition 187, the controversial 1994 measure that barred illegal immigrants from receiving social services.

    Richard "Mac" McConnell agrees.

    "It makes me angry when the will of the people is not upheld," said McConnell, 82.

    "Under the Constitution it's supposed to be, but it's not anymore," he said. "And that's wrong."

    McConnell is one of the regulars who gather on the benches on Main Street and take in the sea breeze where the magnolias and vintage storefronts meet the plank pier.

    He is not a die-hard conservative, nor a bigot, he says.

    He usually votes Republican but this time he voted for Obama.

    In some ways, he said, he marvels at how far gays have made their way toward mainstream acceptance.

    For the first half-century of his life, he said, gays were hidden in the margins and no one he knew ever talked about gays' rights. Gays and lesbians seeking marriage was unimaginable.

    "I think they should be able to do what they want to do," he said. "But the law of this land is that marriage is between a man and a woman."

    Nowhere is monolithic, of course. Nearly 43% of voters in Orange County voted "no" on Proposition 8. And plenty of people approached Monday in Seal Beach were against the measure or somewhere in the middle.

    Laury Creyaufmiller, 40, played with her 4-year-old son on the beach's giant sand berm. She said she was happy to see the protesters on television.

    "That's why this country is so great," she said. "To be honest, I don't really understand the issue. If you're a man and don't believe in gay marriage, you shouldn't marry a man."

    Creyaufmiller said the margin of victory by 4.6 percentage points statewide did not send a clear message that Californians were against gay marriage.

    "The people basically said some of us think this is OK, and some of us don't," she said.

    Some supporters of the ban said they were trying to be as tolerant as they could, and took umbrage with the allegation, made repeatedly at protests, that they were homophobes.

    Yvonne Lee, 64, playing with her grandchildren at the beach playground, said she has family members who are gay whom she would never want to hurt.

    But as an evangelical Christian, she said she knows the "correct forces of nature." She noted that this is the second time Californians have voted to ban gay marriage, referring to Proposition 22 in 2000, which was overturned in May by the state Supreme Court.

    "They lost," she said. "Accept it."

    She too feared the ever-invoked slippery slope.

    "What are people going to be asking for next?" she asked.

    Bob Murphy, a Huntington Beach bike shop owner, does not see a valid comparison between gay-marriage proponents and civil rights protesters of the past and present.

    "It is a moral issue," said Murphy, 64. "It isn't a civil rights issue. You can't just do anything you want."

    He said gay marriage defies a basic instinct people have about the natural order of human relations.

    And as a pastor, he said he fears the government would begin to put limits on what he could preach if gay marriage becomes legal.

    But he and a friend who met for lunch shrugged about the court challenges, as if the measure's overturning were inevitable.

    "What am I going to do?" asked his friend, who did not want to give his name. "Move to Canada," which actually allows same-sex marriage.

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    Elite Member nana55's Avatar
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    No one has ever told the catholic church who can and cannot be married in their church and they aren't about to stop now. I also feel the will of the people should be followed. However the people were lied to about this prop and it shouldn't count. I wish this kind of propoganda could be outlawed when passing propositions and bills.
    If I can't be a good example, then let me be a horrible warning.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Fucking old people. Die already, would you?
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    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    The only solution is to legalize the civil unions and at the same time specifically ban other activities which many who see the slippery slope as leading to, then hope no one argues those are innate traits, which would lead to someone arguing participants in those activities are facing denial of their civil rights.



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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Again, the slippery slope argument is idiotic.

    Even if people wanted to have 10 wives, or marry their lamp.. who cares?

    What business is it of anybody elses?

    Why do they care?

    It doesn't affect them.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member ana-mish-ana's Avatar
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    Exactly - and its pretty ironic that the Mormon fundie church is behind Prop 8 yet sanctifies polygamy at their own back yard.

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    Elite Member msdeb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post

    From his living room in Leisure World in Seal Beach, Larry Black has watched the anti-Proposition 8 protests on his TV. He's read about the legal challenges to overturn the measure. And he has a thought.

    "It's ridiculous," said Black, 66. "It's the people's vote. . . . That's the way it should be. That's it."



    .
    this person's opinion doesnt surprise me. Leisure World (aka Seizure world) is the biggest retirement community in Orange County (maybe in Southern Ca)
    Basic rule of Gossip Rocks: Don't be a dick.Tati
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    Elite Member angelais's Avatar
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    The f*cking chickens in California have more rights than same sex couples. "Oh those poor chickens need more space to run around before we take all their eggs and chop their heads off". Give me a break.
    Did you know that an anagram for "Conscious Uncoupling" is "Iconic Uncool Pus Guns"? - MohandasKGanja

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    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Again, the slippery slope argument is idiotic.

    Even if people wanted to have 10 wives, or marry their lamp.. who cares?

    What business is it of anybody elses?

    Why do they care?

    It doesn't affect them.

    I've been thinking about it and so many christians I know are so frakking miserable...they live for the right to be better than. And I think it's a dangerous precdent to take away their 'better than thou' because then what reason do they have to endure their misery, if they aren't better than anyone else for doing so. No fun in that.

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    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Not everyone opposed to gay marriage is a fundie Christian. Christianity is not the only religion which has little to no tolerance for homosexuality. Saying Christianity is behind this is akin to saying all gays are atheists, which they are not.

    Admittedly, Christian beliefs are brought to the forefront in the argument against, but religion is not the sole reason.

    I want to know what the non-Christians, atheists, and agnostics who voted for Prop 8 base their beliefs on.



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    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    I don't.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I do.

    The reason so many people cling to their magic sky fairy is that there is no real, LOGICAL reason to oppose something that does not affect them, yet would being happiness to others.

    I would love to hear the convoluted thought process
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    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    I depresses me. It's either rehashed propaganda that they've never examined because they 'trust' whoever told them to think that way, or it's real, honest to god bigotry a 'good reason' that barely covers the 'real reason' which is the kind of hate you feel like you need a shower after you've been exposed to it. Boring, unoriginal, and always the same.

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    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymeman View Post
    I don't.
    That answer and stance is the exact reason the gay rights movement isn't making the progress it could.



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    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    I do feel that it defeats the purpose of a vote if people can just overturn it when the result isn't what they wanted.

    I have a question that might seem stupid, but I'll ask anyway. If it becomes legal, can the Church still refuse to acknowledge or perform gay marriage ceremonies, or would they be forced to go along with it?

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