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Thread: Mormons vs Gays due to California Prop. 8

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    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Default Mormons vs Gays due to California Prop. 8

    Mormons vs Gays



    The Hewitt strategy of trying to bring the LDS church - especially LDS money - into a Christianist popular front began with the Romney candidacy. Then it morphed into Prop 8, funded by $20 million of Mormon money. The leadership of the LDS church has every right to do this; but equally gay people and their families now have every right to highlight the Mormon church as an enemy of civil rights and of gay people everywhere. This will be decried as bigotry. But gays are not fighting to remove the civil rights of Mormons; while Mormons have successfully campaigned to remove the civil rights of gays.

    Tolerant and inclusive Mormons should not be forgotten; the Mormon tradition of church-state separation should not be ignored either. But toleration goes both ways. Gay people have every right to regard the Mormon church hierarchy as a mortal enemy. If they knock on my door any time soon, they will get an earful.

    (Photo: Protest signs are left on the fence of the Los Angeles Mormon Temple as supporters of same-sex marriage continue to protest against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints November 6, 2008 in Los Angeles, California. By David McNew/Getty.)

    The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan (November 07, 2008) - Mormons vs Gays
    I heard that gays in Utah are protesting at Temple Square in Salt Lake either today or tomorrow too.

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    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Am I the only one that thinks that these protests don't have the meaning they should have?

    By that I mean, yes I don't fault people for protesting or marching in front of the mormon church as they did fund a significant amount of money. But the anti prop 8 side raised more money.

    And my biggest problem is that not every person that voted for prop. 8 were mormons or were particularly influenced by their prop 8 campaign. If anything I'd say that most who voted yes would have done so regardless of what the mormon church said or did, as more people have anti gay sentiments and agendas than I'd feel comfortable acknowledging. It's not like the mormons or other religious nutcases held a gun to these people's heads and forced them to vote yes.

    I think this is more venting of frustration and anger at an obvious target, but it doesn't address the more uncomfortable reality about the actual people that voted yes for prop. 8.

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    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    I think if they used that much tax-free money to influence any political situation at ALL ,they need to lose the tax exempt status.
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

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    Ellen's been talking about this and she made such a good point. Since she just got married, and she's afraid of losing her marriage rights, she said she was driving along the other day and the person in front of her had a bumper sticker saying "yes on 8" or whatever is the negative for that situation (yes means bad, right?). So she pulled up and said through windows to them "Hello? Why?"
    Which is fair, I mean imagine if people made it forbidden for women to have children. Or some other right most take for granted? It's so ridiculous and unneccessary! Hope Obama cuts this shit.

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    "Yes on 8" means no gay marriage rights, correct.

    In my county, the pro-prop-8 signs were everywhere. The local Mormans did in fact use their children to hold signs on election day. I do think their campaign was very, very influential. Not every voter was highly informed, you drive up to the polling place to see happy children joyously waving yellow signs with "Yes on 8" and stick figures holding up their hands in triumph ...

    the ballot measures are confusing, you have to vote yes/no (at least around here) or the machine rejects your ballot, and even I, knowing exactly how I wanted to vote, had to read the prop 8 wording again and again because it was so confusing and I was afraid I didn't understand it correctly.

    When I saw those kids with the signs, I had a sinking feeling prop 8 would pass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    I think if they used that much tax-free money to influence any political situation at ALL ,they need to lose the tax exempt status.
    Exactly. And the Catholic Church certainly hasn't been shy about telling parishoners who to vote for, either. My feeling is this is a total violation of Separation of Church and State. If they are not respecting that, they need to lose their tax exempt status. Frankly, there are lots of 'Churches' which shouldn't be tax exempt. Look at the 'Church of the Duggars'. Just because they have 18 kids, doesn't mean they shouldn't pay tax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    Exactly. And the Catholic Church certainly hasn't been shy about telling parishoners who to vote for, either. My feeling is this is a total violation of Separation of Church and State. If they are not respecting that, they need to lose their tax exempt status. Frankly, there are lots of 'Churches' which shouldn't be tax exempt. Look at the 'Church of the Duggars'. Just because they have 18 kids, doesn't mean they shouldn't pay tax.
    For the sake of the planet,they need to pay double tax!
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

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    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    Am I the only one that thinks that these protests don't have the meaning they should have?

    By that I mean, yes I don't fault people for protesting or marching in front of the mormon church as they did fund a significant amount of money. But the anti prop 8 side raised more money.

    And my biggest problem is that not every person that voted for prop. 8 were mormons or were particularly influenced by their prop 8 campaign. If anything I'd say that most who voted yes would have done so regardless of what the mormon church said or did, as more people have anti gay sentiments and agendas than I'd feel comfortable acknowledging. It's not like the mormons or other religious nutcases held a gun to these people's heads and forced them to vote yes.

    I think this is more venting of frustration and anger at an obvious target, but it doesn't address the more uncomfortable reality about the actual people that voted yes for prop. 8.
    the way I see it, the Mormon Church needs to a) pay taxes, or b) stay the hell out of politics. Period, there is no middle ground here.

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    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    I think if they used that much tax-free money to influence any political situation at ALL ,they need to lose the tax exempt status.
    I couldn't agree more. Utah is such a Republican state because it's inferred that you can't be a good Mormon if you vote Democratic. That's crossing the line as far as I'm concerned.
    During my life, I've always known Utahns to be extremely Republican. This is very understandable. The majority of our population is a member of, or has ties to, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Republican Party's supposed beliefs and principles, at this point, are more in line with the LDS church's beliefs and principles. People have told me I cannot be a good Mormon without being a Republican. For as long as I can remember, people have made me feel like if I don't stand unwaveringly by the Republican Party, I will go to h-e-double-hockey sticks, and frankly, I'm angry about it.
    Obama the best man for perilous times - Standard.NET - Standard-Examiner
    I thought this blog had good details on what to do about the LDS' church tax-exempt status.
    • The Church did not directly donate to organizations attempting to influence Proposition 8.
      False.
      Campaign finance records show that an in-kind donation of $2,078.97 from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was made on Oct. 25 to ProtectMarriage.com. (Salt Lake Tribune, 29 October 2008.)
    • Ballot initiatives aren’t legislation or a political candidate, and therefore aren’t covered by the statute.
      False. Ballot initiatives are indeed legislation, and “no substantial part of the activities of [a tax-exempt entity may be] carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation” according to Internal Revenue Code Title 26, §501. In related law, §4911(e)(2) (regulating political activity by certain non-church charitable organizations) states:
      The term “legislation” includes action with respect to Acts, bills, resolutions, or similar items by the Congress, any State legislature, any local council, or similar governing body, or by the public in a referendum, initiative, constitutional amendment, or similar procedure.
    • Because the donation the Church made directly was so small, its activities were not substantial.
      False. The interpretation of the phrase “no substantial part” is not based solely on monetary or percentage terms. See Rosemary Fei’s Introduction to Lobbying by Charities and Joanna Pressman’s
      Legislative and Political Activity Campaign Limitations….
    Common Misunderstandings « Revoke LDS Church 501(c)(3) Status

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    Eli
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    In regards to this whole garbage, why do people of God devote so much of their energy to trying to destroy the lives of good, hard-working people? You'd think at least one of them would have the common sense to realise that being horrible to others is not very God-friendly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    In regards to this whole garbage, why do people of God devote so much of their energy to trying to destroy the lives of good, hard-working people? You'd think at least one of them would have the common sense to realise that being horrible to others is not very God-friendly.
    Because they're not truly "people of God", they're just spiteful and bigoted wastes of oxygen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Authority View Post
    Because they're not truly "people of God", they're just spiteful and bigoted wastes of oxygen.
    And that,friends, sums it right up.
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

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    Something that's been bugging me is why religion is allowed in politics. For a country based on religious freedom there is so much emphasis on "christian values" and anything perceived to be against that is considered bad. Imagine if Prop 8 was to vote in Shariah law, or prevent interracial marriage, or any number of other human rights that are frowned upon by any other religion. Why anyone would believe it's okay to vote based on religious belief (or based on what the pastor/minister/rabbi, etc tells them) and not based on what's best for everyone is beyond me.

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    It's not supposed to be ok. Bush43 and cohorts have made a legitimate effort to overturn the separation of church and state in this country. 'Faith Based Initiatives', etc. These churches which meddle in the elections and affairs of state should have their tax exempt status yanked.

    And, just to take the moment to stand on my soap box, I think it is a basic human right in this country that citizens whether Black, White, Purple, Orange, Tall, Short, Gay, Straight, Handicapped, Not, Male or Female should enjoy equal protection under the law. There should be NO DIFFERENCE. At the risk of cribbing a line from the West Wing "America is not just a country. It's an idea that has lit the world for 200 years". Well, minus the last eight. I quote the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness'. Surely the right to marry falls within this parameter.
    Last edited by scooter; November 8th, 2008 at 09:30 PM.

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    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymeman View Post
    the way I see it, the Mormon Church needs to a) pay taxes, or b) stay the hell out of politics. Period, there is no middle ground here.

    Hey I agree with you, hit them where it hurts. But what I am saying is that the mormon church is only one aspect of this whole mess.

    Was every person in the state of California that voted yes on proposition 8 a member of the mormon church? I don't think so. Those who voted yes I presume came from all racial, social, and religious backgrounds.

    Yes the mormon church contributed millions but at the same time I still stand by my assertion that those who voted yes would have done so regardless of whether it was the mormon church who donated money or mr. joe citizen who did. These homophobic people don't need any persuasion or incentive to vote against gay rights.

    And that is what I have been referring to these past few days. While the mormon church receives all this anger and protests and whatnot, it is disconcerting that those who shoudl receive equal venom are those who voted yes on prop. 8 who have no affiliation with the mormon church.

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