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Thread: Barack Obama in his own words: 'An ominous tone of authoritarianism'

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    Elite Member tkdgirl's Avatar
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    Default Barack Obama in his own words: 'An ominous tone of authoritarianism'

    Around this time in the presidential election cycle, Democratic candidates traditionally start "running to the center." With a wink and a nod to their core, far-left constituencies, the candidates in effect say, "For the next five months I'm going to sound like a small-government Republican, talking about tax cuts and free enterprise and a strong defense and cutting back the welfare rolls. But don't worry, this is just to have a calming effect on all those oxen we're going to get back to collectively goring next year."
    The rhetoric then shifts to the right -- until the day after the election, of course.

    We hope our congratulations are not premature, but it's worthy of note that, so far, presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama does not seem to be taking this path. If Sen. Obama is elected president, it will not be because he has disguised the fact that he is a dyed-in-the-wool collectivist.

    According to a transcript of the graduation speech Sen. Obama gave at Wesleyan University last weekend -- he filled in for the ailing Sen. Ted Kennedy -- this career politician (who lives in a house worth $1.65 million, made more than $4 million last year, and who wears very nice suits, indeed) advised the young graduates: "You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits and the other things that our money culture says you should buy. ... But I hope you don't. Not because ... you have a debt to all those who helped you get to where you are today, although I do believe you have that debt to pay. It's because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation."

    This was not a slip of the tongue. It was written out in advance. Nor is it likely this well-educated man does not know what he has just said. And while this doctrine follows quite logically from the direction in which the Democratic Party has been trying to take this nation in great leaps in 1913 and 1933 and 1965, it still represents a vast sea-change from the traditional American notion that we deserve to succeed and prosper based on our own, individual choices and efforts.

    Of course it's meritorious to voluntarily help the less fortunate. But what the candidate has just said is that we cannot be "saved" by our own merit and labors if we do not force our neighbors to behave properly, as well. And that -- conversely -- so long as our neighbors work hard and do well, those of us who choose to sit around drunk or watching the soap operas all day are also to be saved -- "collectively."

    Do we have this wrong? In a recent speech in California, the candidate's wife, Michelle, said, "Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism. ... Barack Obama will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual -- uninvolved, uninformed."

    Campaigning in Oregon, Sen. Obama recently said, "We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times ... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK. ... That's not going to happen."

    "Not going to happen?" asked Investor's Business Daily in a June 2 editorial. "Require? Demand? Never allow? If you detect an ominous tone of authoritarianism, so do we."

    Yes, let's acknowledge the context. Sen. Obama in his Wesleyan address was trying to convey some sense of vision and idealism to young people about to start off into the world. And he did warn against pursuing "only" the big house and nice suits. Of course there are higher virtues than seeking wealth for its own sake.

    But Sen. Obama is not trying out for a job in the clergy. He seeks to become the chief executive officer of a secular state with enormous power to impose collectivism by force, should it fall into the hands of the wrong person. That's relevant context, here, too.

    Sen. Obama thundered to the Wesleyan grads that, "At a time when our ice caps are melting and our oceans are rising," (Really? Is Miami gone?) "we need you to help lead a green revolution."

    Yet, disturbingly, he made not a single passing reference, not a cursory tip of the hat, to the fact that graduates who seek jobs in commerce and industry -- manufacturing and transporting and selling the goods that fill our ports and rivers and highways, raw materials and finished products that make our lives longer and better and happier than those of half-naked savages huddled in some distant jungle hoping the panthers don't drag off the baby tonight -- are doing a "public service," as well.

    In fact, the capitalist system is wonderful in the ruthlessness with which it rewards only those who can provide the public with a product or service they're willing to voluntarily pay for, faster or cheaper or better than anyone else. And while someone with the talent to be a surgeon or a physicist or an engineer is free to spend her day collecting soda cans, capitalism -- without forcing her choice -- reliably indicates to her which job is more valuable to society by the mechanism of the salary each job commands.

    Is it really possible Sen. Barack Obama -- who has had virtually no experience working in private industry, in a factory, in a mine, on a farm or ranch, in a store -- does not know this?

    At the very least, as he expresses the "hope" that today's graduates "don't" chase after financial success, one might think he would express a passing word of gratitude to all those taxpayers out there who continue to labor to make $50,000 or more -- since those are the taxpayers who provide the vast bulk of the confiscated tax loot that our congressmen regularly turn into porkfat to purchase their re-election.

    Not a word of thanks for our labors, Sen. Obama -- for the labors of those who built the Wal-Mart and the McDonald's, even if they did so in hopes of being able to afford a big house and a nice suit ... just like yours?

    ReviewJournal.com - Opinion - EDITORIAL: Barack Obama in his own words

    -----------------------------------------------------

    100% SPOT ON!

    A government big enough to give you everything you want,
    is strong enough to take everything you have. ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Oh for gods sake, now they're trying to paint him as a pinko commie? Lame. I love how fearful idiots get worked up over the world "collective". The 50's are over for gods sake. Welcome to now.

    However, anybody who does merely want the big house or fancy suits is an empty shell of a person.. sure Obama as well as many others have those things but he's also engaged in a career that has worldwide ramifications... something all those trophy soccermoms who have the same, vapidly getting their nails done while driving their huge-ass escalades aound wouldn't know about. Same with that douche who burns himself out to buy a penis enhancing sports car and ugly mcmansion just so he HAS THEM.

    Capitalism itself is not inherently evil, it's how you participate in it. There's smart capitalism and right-wing fascist capitalism, where there are no rules at all. One is responsible, the other not. Pretty sure that's what he was alluding to. Responsible capitalism is MASSIVELY powerful and CAN be beneficial. The other is nothing but destructive. Money without substance is greed.

    What a stupid article. Vastly stupid.
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    Elite Member tkdgirl's Avatar
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    ^^ He's more to the left than Hillary is! And to me, a conservative, she's a socialist!

    A government big enough to give you everything you want,
    is strong enough to take everything you have. ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Even if he was, theoretically, so what? What's 8 years of Republican moneywasting, wars, and tax cuts gotten you?

    Dems are, by far, more responsible with the nations finances. The repubs screw it up each time they get in, and it takes the Dems 10 years to dig out from under it and then finally it gets righted and then it starts all over.

    The most successful, highest standard of living and generally happiest nations on the planet have a good dose of 'socialism' thrown into their policies, and look how well they do.

    Seriously, this whole commie/socialist fear is such propaganda and 50 year old nonsense. It doesn't even make any SENSE if you look at it logically, with numbers and history.

    Historically: so called conservatives in north america have vastly outspent their so called socialist left opponents. They have also historically bankrupted the nation, raised deficits and debts, and historically have always widened the gap further between the megarich and megapoor.

    Frankly, you could do with some socialism. Maybe it would teach social and fiscal responsibility. You can have responsible socialism you know. It's not all Russians marching through red square just like capitalism isn't all Hitler parading through the Sudetenland.. and before you start on THAT, the 'National Socialist Workers Party' in Nazi germany was just a name. Every policy was capitalism unbound, corporations meshed with government. That's all right wing capitalism in it's more pure and extreme form is anyway. Corporate Fascism.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member tkdgirl's Avatar
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    Bullshit, Grimm. That's all I'm saying. I am done arguing with someone extolling the virtues of socialism while calling spewing crap like corporate fascism.

    A government big enough to give you everything you want,
    is strong enough to take everything you have. ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Yes, it's bullshit that the nordic countries, heavily influenced by socialism, have a better standard of living.

    It's bullshit that fear of socialism is utterly unfounded given the above.

    it's bullshit that 8 years of 'conservative' rule have resulted in 2 wars, a drained treasury, a trillion dollars worth of debt, most of that debt owned by china, the dumping of the greenback for the euro, and the gap between megarich and megapoor has widened geometrically.

    It's just allllllllllllllllllll bullshit, despite the reality we face today that has been accepted by economists worldwide. It's just not REAL at all.

    Give me a break. Open your eyes.

    Secondly, corporate fascism, that is corporate control and intermeshing of government and capitalism IS fascism. Specifically, it is how Germany went from desperately poor in the 20's to fantastically wealthy in the 30's, along with jury rigging its banking system (again at the behest of the government which was indistiguishable from any corporation you see today in functionality) and it's currency.

    Learn your history. You're done arguing because frankly you don't KNOW anything about this topic. You see is "socialism", and all you have in your head is the McCarthyite fearmongering that, amazingly, intelligent people still haven't jettisoned despite all the time that's passed and the fact that WE KNOW BETTER.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member tkdgirl's Avatar
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    No, I see socialism as a way of rewarding those who don't want to try with the hard earned money of those who work for it.

    If you think the socialist utopia of Europe would be the same here in the US, you need to pull your head outta your arse.

    Our culture is 180 different than Europe.

    You can say I don't know about this all you want, Grimm. It wouldn't matter what I'd say because you'd say I was wrong anyway. I could be a Harvard Professor with an opposing view and you'd still say I was wrong.

    The fact is, in terms of government policy, the US is already on the fast tract to socialism. It has been since the late 1930's.

    But again, 'evil corporations' is an argument I would expect from a leftist. The virtues of socialism is something I expect from a leftist. And the oh so wonderful, 'damn the US' crap as well.

    This isn't a debate. It isn't even a discussion. Its like beating my head against a brick wall.

    And I am done arguing with someone who no matter what anyone posts, if they don't believe as you, they are:

    evil Republicans
    supporters of corporate fascism
    stupid
    Bush lover
    etc.
    etc.
    etc.

    I will no longer reply or comment to any of your political threads or posts. It just isn't worth it anymore. You aren't going to change what you believe. Nor will I.

    Bye.

    A government big enough to give you everything you want,
    is strong enough to take everything you have. ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    I think I've proven that I have nothing of substance to add in these political threads, but I feel compelled to go out on a limb and say this.

    I hate politics because of articles like this, because I never know what to believe. I never know what the truth is. All the articles are written with a slant, and most people who read them are going to interpret them in a way that validates what they already believe.

    I guess I'm "uninformed & uninvolved" but I just don't know where the truth is, without the spin. I read that article, and yeah, my first knee-jerk impression was that the guy sure does ping one's commie radar, but by the time I got to the end of it, I was thinking that he's just another hypocrite. I seriously doubt that he's depriving himself of anything. I'd like to see what his thermostat is set on.

    Anyway, I think all politicians are all liars & talk out of both sides of their mouths. And the people who write articles about them are also pushing their own agendas, or the agendas of their employers. Maybe this is my lazy-ass American way of making excuses, but this is why I think it's futile to bother with it all. There are vast numbers of people who feel like I do, and I suppose if we all demanded accountability, things might change, but I don't see that happening.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia View Post
    I think I've proven that I have nothing of substance to add in these political threads, but I feel compelled to go out on a limb and say this.

    I hate politics because of articles like this, because I never know what to believe. I never know what the truth is. All the articles are written with a slant, and most people who read them are going to interpret them in a way that validates what they already believe.

    I guess I'm "uninformed & uninvolved" but I just don't know where the truth is, without the spin. I read that article, and yeah, my first knee-jerk impression was that the guy sure does ping one's commie radar, but by the time I got to the end of it, I was thinking that he's just another hypocrite. I seriously doubt that he's depriving himself of anything. I'd like to see what his thermostat is set on.

    Anyway, I think all politicians are all liars & talk out of both sides of their mouths. And the people who write articles about them are also pushing their own agendas, or the agendas of their employers. Maybe this is my lazy-ass American way of making excuses, but this is why I think it's futile to bother with it all. There are vast numbers of people who feel like I do, and I suppose if we all demanded accountability, things might change, but I don't see that happening.
    You have a lot more insight that you give yourself credit for. You've hit the nail on the head more than once in your post.
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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkdgirl View Post
    No, I see socialism as a way of rewarding those who don't want to try with the hard earned money of those who work for it.
    Yes, because there are a few bad apples the entire social safety net should be scrapped, despite it working pretty damn well in the countries that have THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF LIVING ON THE PLANET. yes people will take advantage of it, but for every one of those there are a thousand others who use it when in dire straits. I know because I was one of them. it provided a buffer THAT I HAD PAYED INTO EVER SINCE I WAS REQUIRED TO PAY TAXES when I needed it most, and i got back on my feet. I pay taxes and I'm glad it's there should something go catastrophically wrong.

    The problem with a system like that is when it is not enforced properly, which in the US is a massive problem. The safety net is not the problem.. it's something everyone can tap IF NEEDED. THe issue is that it is not policed in any cogent fashion.

    If you think the socialist utopia of Europe would be the same here in the US, you need to pull your head outta your arse.
    No, your culture needs a 180 degree turn. The whole "everybody is an island" might have worked in back in the 1800's when the US was frontierland, and homesteads WERE the backbone of an emerging economy. That is not the case anymore, and hasn't been for 100 years. Times change, but irritatingly this mentality still exists. The world is a small place getting smaller, and the more interconnected we become the more the need for structures in place to handle it. You can't be an island anymore. It's time to grow up and realize that.

    Our culture is 180 different than Europe.
    Your culture has good things and bad things about it like any other. The issue is recognizing what works and what doesn't. American 'go -getter-sim" (which is sadly fading) is a positive, and Europe's social net is also good. What's bad about America is the whole "i'm an island" thing, and what's bad about europe is the "nanny state" problem. The solution is somewhere in the middle.. have the structure in place but make sure it's properly funded and policed.

    You can say I don't know about this all you want, Grimm. It wouldn't matter what I'd say because you'd say I was wrong anyway. I could be a Harvard Professor with an opposing view and you'd still say I was wrong.
    No, it's just that what you say does not make any sense given the facts and reality around us. The whole "socialism is pure evil" thing is ridiculous and is not based in reality, just as conservatism is not purely evil. It's what you DO with it.

    And Harvard professors aren't the most brilliant of people. I saw more than one congratulate Canada on converting to standard 24 time in 1998 on TV. Sad.

    The fact is, in terms of government policy, the US is already on the fast tract to socialism. It has been since the late 1930's.
    Fast track? LOL no, a very slow track all the while denying the fact that massive government subsidies and corporate handouts exist at all. The illusion of the US as frontierland, and 'socialism is evil' is important to maintain because it lets the gov and corps get away with doing exactly that.

    But again, 'evil corporations' is an argument I would expect from a leftist. The virtues of socialism is something I expect from a leftist. And the oh so wonderful, 'damn the US' crap as well.
    *sighs* Did you miss the entire thing about RESPONSIBLE capitalism versus PURE UNADULTERATED CAPITALISM? I guess so, you're more interested in painting me with absolutes when I've done a bang-up job of illustrating different gray areas and positions, and how one participates.

    This isn't a debate. It isn't even a discussion. Its like beating my head against a brick wall.
    No, it's not.

    This is me:

    Corporations CAN be evil/good, Governments CAN be evil/good, Socialism CAN be bad/good and it all depends on how they are participated in. Also a good dose of history.

    You:

    Socialism is evil for no reason, all leftists hate corporations, all leftists hate the US, all leftists hate capitalism.

    Do you see the difference? You're the brick wall. You're waving your "better dead than red" flag while plugging your ears and yelling LA LA LA LA LA while i'm attempting to talk about how things work now, why they dont work, how they should work, and how we'd go about it.


    And I am done arguing with someone who no matter what anyone posts, if they don't believe as you, they are:

    evil Republicans
    supporters of corporate fascism
    stupid
    Bush lover
    etc.
    etc.
    etc.
    I'm done arguing with someone who doesn't accept the reality of what is around them, the reality of history, or facts about the present. You hold onto your 'socialism is evil' ideology because you're frankly ill equipped to do anything but. You couldn't argue the merits or negatives because you don't have the capability as demonstrated here.

    I will no longer reply or comment to any of your political threads or posts. It just isn't worth it anymore. You aren't going to change what you believe. Nor will I.

    Bye.
    It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of reality. You prefer belief despite the reality.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Look at me, I'm holding up my hand & admitting that I know jack shit about socialism. But it does seem to me that these Nordic countries have some fundamental differences from the US that are worth pointing out, offshore oil money notwithstanding. For one, they're much, much smaller, hence fewer people to get on board with things. They have much more cohesive cultures. In the US, everybody in the world is represented here, so there is distrust of the other guy, i.e., you're afraid he's gonna overrun your neighborhood, take your stuff, ruin the look of things, change everything, etc. Anyway, it just seems to me that it would be a lot more comfortable for some countries to have a socialist flavor to them than it would be for us in the US. I guess I'm just thinking about why Americans are so repulsed by the concept of socialism & why it would be so difficult to implement here, and why many people would be alarmed if Obama wanted to do so.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Lobes.....

    If you ever say again that you don't have political knowledge I'll hit you

    You have concise understanding of quite a bit.......
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


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    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    LOL, well, I guess I just want to make it clear that I don't keep up with the facts. Some people, like Grimm, are extremely current with what's going on, and I am definitely not.
    "I've cautiously embraced jeggings"
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    Yip, yip, yip in your tiny indignation. Bark furiously on, lady dog.

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    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
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    To me, some Americans seem to have an almost pathological dislike of social states. I knew American students in France who were entitled to a housing aid available to all students and they never got it because they didn't agree. The French state was giving them money and they wouldn't take it. It was really weird. It was also kinda hard to explain that yes, in a socialist country being taxed sucks but at the same time, I didn't pay anything for University or healthcare so it balances out in the end.

    I don't like Obama but if he's elected and makes the US a little commie, it will be for the best.

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    Gold Member mamaste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia View Post
    I guess I'm "uninformed & uninvolved" but I just don't know where the truth is, without the spin.
    You go to the source and decide for yourself.

    For example, here are some of the parts of the speech that were left out of the quoted parts above:

    Each of you will have the chance to make your own discovery in the years to come. And I say “chance” because you won’t have to take it. There’s no community service requirement in the real world; no one forcing you to care. You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits and all the other things that our money culture says you should by. You can choose to narrow your concerns and live your life in a way that tries to keep your story separate from America’s.

    But I hope you don’t. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, though you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, though you do have that debt.

    It’s because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition. Because it’s only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential and discover the role you’ll play in writing the next great chapter in America’s story.
    Transcript Of Obama's Wesleyan Commencement Address - Connecticut News Story - WFSB Hartford
    Last edited by mamaste; June 6th, 2008 at 07:20 PM.

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