Poland to investigate secret prisons

[buttmunch]

GENEVA — The International Red Cross on Friday renewed its demand that it be allowed to visit all detainees in "undisclosed locations" after a senior State Department official confirmed the United States has yet to grant the agency access to all its terror suspects.

ICRC President Jakob Kellenberger was commenting on a remark Thursday by State Department legal adviser John B. Bellinger III, who was asked by reporters during a visit to Geneva whether the ICRC has access to all other similar prisoners held by the United States elsewhere in the world. Bellinger replied, "No," and declined to say any more.

Kellenberger noted that he has been urging top U.S. officials for at least two years to make sure the ICRC, which is assigned under the Geneva Conventions on warfare to check on conditions of detainees, gains access to all detainees held by the United States.

"We continue to be in intense dialogue with them with the aim of getting access to all people detained in the framework of the so-called war on terror without any geographical limitation," Kellenberger said.

He said the ICRC was are already visiting "very many detainees" being held by the United States "in Guantanamo, in Afghanistan, in Iraq," but he declined to say where else the ICRC believed the United States was holding detainees.

Kellenberger, asked whether the ICRC had visited any secret U.S. detention facilities in Europe, said, "No."

After Kellenberger made his comments, a State Department spokesman in Washington said the United States did not allow Red Cross access to some detainees under U.S. control.

"We do not consider under the Geneva Convention those members of Al Qaeda as covered by the Geneva Convention," spokesman Adam Ereli said. "But at the same time, even though we're not legally required to do so, we do provide access to the vast majority of detainees under our control. There are some, however, that we do not.

Kellenberger noted that the ICRC issued a statement in January 2004 as he concluded meetings with top U.S. officials in Washington, including then-Secretary of State Colin Powell and then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.

"Beyond Guantanamo, the ICRC is increasingly concerned about the fate of an unknown number of people captured as part of the so-called global war on terror and held in undisclosed locations," the 2004 ICRC statement said. "Mr. Kellenberger echoed previous official requests from the ICRC for information on these detainees and for eventual access to them."

The Council of Europe, the continent's top human rights watchdog, has launched an investigation. EU leaders say any member states found to have been involved could have their voting rights suspended.

Poland and Romania have been identified by the New York-based Human Rights Watch as sites of possible CIA secret prisons in Europe, but both countries have repeatedly denied any involvement.

Bellinger said the United States "would dearly love to deny many of the allegations" about secret prisons in Europe, but had decided that it cannot comment on some intelligence activities — "even to deny those things that are clearly wrong" — and not on others.

"So it's quite difficult, because it does leave publics thinking that the United States is doing things that it is not, in certain cases," he added. "All of our public expect that our intelligence activities ... will be carried out in secret."

More than a half-dozen investigations are under way into whether European countries may have hosted secret U.S.-run prisons, and whether European airports and airspace were used for CIA flights in which prisoners were tortured or transported to countries where torture is practiced.

The Washington Post first reported the alleged existence of secret prisons in eastern Europe and other countries last month

I'm guessing thier doing this under extreme pressure from the EU. They are fairly new members, and pretty much second tier members so if they don't do this, they can kiss thier subsidies good bye. I'm waiting for several other countries to begin thier investigations. Perhaps Europe isn't as irrelevant as the Bushies would like to paint them?

[SVZ]

Are these U.S. run secret prisons, or Polish ones? I don't know much about Polish history or current events...but I really can't picture them doing horrible things

On another note, do other countries run prisons on other nation's land? I only really hear about the U.S. doing this type of thing...why can't they do it on their own territory? You can ship a parcel halfway across the globe for 20 bucks, I don't see how much more a prisoner could cost, especially if you treat them like scum.

And could we get a link please or at least the author or copyright owner? People do like to visit the originating site,

[buttmunch]

These are the alleged US-run secret prisons. It's interesting because just yesterday, the administration admitted they'd been hiding prisoners from the Red Cross, in violation of international agreements.

[SVZ]

But why in Poland and everywhere? Harder to find? Does it not irk anyone else that they have Guantanamo in CUBA for all places? I mean, I don't mind when people are hypocritical, but to impose an international law and then buy land?

[Grimmlok]

You'd think Poland would have had enough of concentration camps....*innocent whistle*

[ourmaninBusan]

On another note, do other countries run prisons on other
nation's land? I only really hear about the U.S. doing this type of thing...
why can't they do it on their own territory? You can ship a parcel halfway
across the globe for 20 bucks, I don't see how much more a prisoner could
cost, especially if you treat them like scum.

Once a prisoner is in an American prison on American soil,
they are subject to American laws and they are entitled to
certain legal rights -- the right to an attorney, the right to
be advised of your rights in your own language, and others...

But -- if you are not on American soil, then you are in a legal
limbo and you can be denied those rights. After all, if you
are in Guantanamo Bay Prison, whose rules apply? You could
argue that before a judge for years...because you are not
guaranteed a "speedy" trial...because you're not on American
soil.

It's a way of getting around the Geneva convention, too, I suspect.

[Grimmlok]

They're already excempt from the Geneva convention because the US lebels them 'unlawful combatants', meaning the rules for soldier treatment don't apply since they aren't legal soldiers fighting in a legal war...

Although, that's some hypocrisy right there

[ourmaninBusan]

And of course the prisons were a secret until recently.
Nobody was supposed to know they were there.

[Grimmlok]

Anybody with half a brain knew they existed, and even if the US says it'll stop anybody with half a brain knows it wouldn't be true.

[buttmunch]

Of all the things the bushies have done to really piss me off and upset me, I think this one ranks tops at the moment. It is so repugnant to think that they would do this. I really think the administration needs to be brought up on charges. They have more than managed to fulfill the requirements of high crimes and misdemeanors.

[Tsarina]

^^so do we just give them tea and cookies and a night at Radisson??? The U.S. isn't the only one with dirty little secrets either.

[Grimmlok]

No, you adhere to US and international law or else you're no better than the 'terrorists' yourselves. You're the same brutal, twisted animals and you become what you purport to fight. In other words, you become a complete lying crock.

And how does other nations' dirty secrets detract from Americas?

"Well, they do it too! Mom!!!"

[buttmunch]

^^so do we just give them tea and cookies and a night at Radisson??? The U.S. isn't the only one with dirty little secrets either.

It's irrelevant whether or not other countries engage in these practices. The US can't run around and say that we are imposing our 'higher standards' on other countries if those standards are in the toilet. And remember, if we treat prisoners from other countries this way, how will our soldiers be treated when captured? And the comment about tea and cookies...not even going to honor that one with a comment. I think you must know that isn't what people are suggesting.

[Tsarina]

your critique of the the way the U.S. handles things begs an alternative. didn't say i'm not of the same mind....just wanting you to see your rhetoric through. i see a lot of pissed off people (about Bush) and i just wonder what they propose in lieu of the things they protest. not attacking you so chill.

[Grimmlok]

I propse they act in accordance with the law, because torture doesn't work anyway. Study upon study confirms this.

Plus, it's just a hideous practice and inhuman. We're better than that.