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Thread: Why those who love America are feeling betrayed

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    Hit By Ban Bus! pacific breeze's Avatar
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    Default Why those who love America are feeling betrayed

    Why those who love America are feeling brokenhearted
    Why those who love America are feeling brokenhearted :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Andrew Greeley
    October 24, 2007
    ANDREW GREELEY agreel@aol.com

    I am ashamed for America. Note carefully that I do not say I am ashamed of America. Despite all its inherent flaws and all its tragic mistakes, the United States stands, however incompletely and with whatever imperfections, for the highest standards of freedom and democracy that the world has yet known.

    I am ashamed for America because all the evil done in the nation's name in recent years is turning off the light on the mountaintop.

    1. The president urges Congress in effect to accept the Turkish protest against the attribution of Armenian genocide because it might interfere with Turkish logistic cooperation in the ill-starred and foolish Iraq war. That's like silencing all congressional action on the Holocaust because we need Germany on our side. If Turks expect to become part of Europe and the West, they must acknowledge what their ancestors did. They could pass a resolution of their own accusing us of genocide against Native Americans if it would make them happy. How humiliating that the president wants us to ignore what happened to the Armenians so we can be victorious in the "global war on terror" (the current replacement for "weapons of mass destruction''). That's called appeasement, and it was appeasement when President Bill Clinton did the same thing.

    2. The government kidnaps, tortures and murders the way the Gestapo did in Nazi Germany. The president blithely dismisses these charges. The United States, he says, does not torture. But that deception is based on a memo from Attorney General Alberto Gonzales defining torture, which the White House won't let anyone else look at.

    3. The government pays large salaries to 148,000 "individual contractors" in Iraq -- more than the total American military there. A third of these are toting guns. They are mercenaries -- often, it would seem, with very quick trigger fingers. Ironically, the most recent victims were two Armenian Christian women. These contractors are a kind of American Foreign Legion, like the notorious French and Spanish foreign legions. They may well be very brave people who do very tough jobs. They also compensate for Mr. Rumsfeld's criminal underestimate of the number of troops required. If, however, the country is going to have a Legion Etranger, it should make sure that it works under tight control. An unrestrained security force quickly becomes a mafia. Humphrey Bogart, where are you when we really need you?

    4. At a remarkably frank meeting of middle-range officers (majors and colonels) at Fort Leavenworth, the soldiers debated not whether there should have been a war in Iraq, but who was to blame for losing it. Was it the senior officers or the joint chiefs or the civilian leaders? The war is not even over yet, and already the officers who fought it and will have to fight its continuation have already given up hope. Too bad for them, because the president has made up his mind that we are still going to win the war and the Democratic presidential candidates speak about a 10-year presence in Iraq. Whatever the political leadership is or will be in 2009, no candidate seems capable of saying, "We're getting out now!" And the rest of the world laughs at us because both parties are led by fools.

    Anyone who cares about the United States and its legacies has to be brokenhearted at what has been done to our beloved country by the crazy people who are running it -- people who have become so skilled at deception they don't even realize anymore that they are deceiving. Just like the Democrats don't realize they are again stealing defeat out of the jaws of victory.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    *raises an eyebrow at the second sentence*

    Suuuuuuuuure it does, keep drinkin that fantasy kool aid..
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    *raises an eyebrow at the second sentence*

    Suuuuuuuuure it does, keep drinkin that fantasy kool aid..
    This is the second sentence. 'Note carefully that I do not say I am ashamed of America. ' so ..HUH?
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

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    I think he meant the third sentence. The fourth sentence makes up for it though.

    Well good for Andrew Greeley for opening the discussion. There's much more, but this was good for starters.

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    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
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    Despite all its inherent flaws and all its tragic mistakes, the United States stands, however incompletely and with whatever imperfections, for the highest standards of freedom and democracy that the world has yet known.

    Erm... whatever, dude. I don't think so but you've done ok in general.

    I didn't know about that Armenian genocide denial. That's a pretty shitty thing to do. Turkey has been disgusting about it all using their influence to silence it everywhere. Why don't they just admit it and be done with it?

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    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Amurricah..love it or we will drop a bomb on ya!!


    Hitler used the Armenian Genocide as a sort of planning point in a way for his atrocities..and when questioned about some of his tactics by some of his cohorts would reply, "well who remembers or cares about the Armenians?"

    Look at what Turkey has been doing to it's Kurdish population..and continues to do to this day..
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    Silver Member zebracakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacific breeze View Post
    Whatever the political leadership is or will be in 2009, no candidate seems capable of saying, "We're getting out now!"
    I'd recommend Googling presidential candidate Ron Paul. He does indeed advocate getting out NOW. He goes against the Republican party line at every turn so he doesn't get the media coverage that he should, but he's a good man and remarkably consistent in his views. He follows the Constitution and since that doesn't change, he doesn't change his opinions. Anyone who is concerned about getting out of the war ASAP, this is your man. He has been quoted as saying something to the effect of, "We just marched right in and we can just march right back out." Sounds like a good exit strategy to me. No need for timetables. Just leave.

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^
    getting out of iraq is one issue on which i disagree with a lot of my fellow liberals and lefties. i think it's irresponsible and cowardly to just get out of the country. they just came in and destroyed it, they can't just say 'oh fuck it, this is getting too messy and expensive and people don't support it anymore', split and leave the country in chaos and on the brink of civil war. they owe it to figure out some kind of 'marshall plan' for economic reconstruction. not to mention, it would make things way worse than before the war. you broke it, you pay. and even if you don't agree that the US owes the iraqis anything, it's in your own best interest because the consequences for the rest of the region (and the US' own economic interests) would be disastrous.
    Last edited by sputnik; October 28th, 2007 at 10:42 AM.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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    Elite Member darksithbunny's Avatar
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    ^^^^Perfectly said. I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    getting out of iraq is one issue on which i disagree with a lot of my fellow liberals and lefties. i think it's irresponsible and cowardly to just get out of the country. they just came in and destroyed it, they can't just say 'oh fuck it, this is getting too messy and expensive and people don't support it anymore', split and leave the country in chaos and on the brink of civil war. they owe it to figure out some kind of 'marshall plan' for economic reconstruction. not to mention, it would make things way worse than before the war. you broke it, you pay. and even if you don't agree that the US owes the iraqis anything, it's in your own best interest because the consequences for the rest of the region (and the US' own economic interests) would be disastrous.
    Quote Originally Posted by darksithbunny View Post
    ^^^^Perfectly said. I agree.
    Agreed.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    The problem is there's no political will between iraqis to hold it together.. they cant even form a coherent government. Without that, you have no hope of anything positive happening.

    The country will be split in 3 along tribal lines.. Iran will scoop up the shi'ite region (the oil rich bit) the minority sunnis will be locked in their own crappy portion and turkey will most likely annex the north to deal with the kurd rebels.

    Iraq qas never a real country to begin with, it was arbitrarily stitched together by the Brits and various other colonial forces and the only way it was held together was a long line of brutal dictators.

    The US cant just throw money at this problem to fix it, it doesnt work. Iraq has no government, and what little there is only wants to further its own tribal and ethnocentric interests.

    It's been almost 5 years and still no progress. Time to bug out and call it even.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Good points. And I would say it's because the U.S. doesn't want them to and is actually preventing them from doing so. Yes, I'm saying that the U.S. agenda is that they want the civil war.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Could be... with civil war, Iran would most likely do a number of things which would give pretext for a US invasion...

    but given the US cant even keep Iraq together, how the fuck can they even hope they can tackle Iran?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Clearly they're deciding that right now. Since Iran is mostly Shia and Saudi Arabia is Sunni (well technically Wahhabi though most people don't know it - I researched that for a paper a couple years ago), and the U.S. is completely in bed with Israel, they may well feel they can call Iran's bluff. At any rate, I believe they want to invade Iran and are helping to create reasons for doing so. On the other hand, I've heard it set forth that Bush and Cheney want to be known as the Presidency that avoided WWIII. Either way, we're all pawns in their sick game.

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