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Thread: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

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    Default Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor
    Sunday November 27, 2005
    The Observer


    Human rights abuses in Iraq are now as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein and are even in danger of eclipsing his record, according to the country's first Prime Minister after the fall of Saddam's regime.
    'People are doing the same as [in] Saddam's time and worse,' Ayad Allawi told The Observer. 'It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things.'

    In a damning and wide-ranging indictment of Iraq's escalating human rights catastrophe, Allawi accused fellow Shias in the government of being responsible for death squads and secret torture centres. The brutality of elements in the new security forces rivals that of Saddam's secret police, he said.

    Allawi, who was a strong ally of the US-led coalition forces and was prime minister until this April, made his remarks as further hints emerged yesterday that President George Bush is planning to withdraw up to 40,000 US troops from the country next year, when Iraqi forces will be capable of taking over.

    Allawi's bleak assessment is likely to undermine any attempt to suggest that conditions in Iraq are markedly improving.

    'We are hearing about secret police, secret bunkers where people are being interrogated,' he added. 'A lot of Iraqis are being tortured or killed in the course of interrogations. We are even witnessing Sharia courts based on Islamic law that are trying people and executing them.'

    He said that immediate action was needed to dismantle militias that continue to operate with impunity. If nothing is done, 'the disease infecting [the Ministry of the Interior] will become contagious and spread to all ministries and structures of Iraq's government', he said.

    In a chilling warning to the West over the danger of leaving behind a disintegrating Iraq, Allawi added: 'Iraq is the centrepiece of this region. If things go wrong, neither Europe nor the US will be safe.'

    His uncompromising comments came on the eve of Saddam's latest court appearance on charges of crimes against humanity. They seem certain to fuel the growing sense of crisis over Iraq, both in the country itself and in the US, where political support for the occupation continues to plummet.

    Allawi was selected to serve as prime minister of the first interim government, before last January's first national elections. Admired in both Downing Street and the White House as a non-sectarian politician committed to strong centralised government representing all Iraqis, Allawi's supporters struggled in last January's elections, where they were eclipsed by Shia religious parties, some of which have been implicated in the violence.

    Recently, however, his reputation has enjoyed a resurgence as he has tried to build alliances with Sunni political groups ahead of next month's national elections.

    His comments come as a blow to those hoping that Iraq was moving towards normalisation under the new government. In a speech on Wednesday, Bush is expected to hail the improved readiness of Iraqi troops, which he has identified as the key condition for withdrawing US forces.

    But the proximity of the latest round of elections appears to have only intensified political murders and intimidations, including members of Allawi's own list, who have been killed and attacked by political rivals.

    Despite denials of wrongdoing by the Ministry of the Interior, which has been implicated in much of the abuse, a series of damaging disclosures, including the discovery of a secret detention centre run by the ministry, has heaped embarrassment on the Iraqi government and its foreign supporters.

    The intervention by one of Iraq's most prominent political figures promises to turn human rights abuses into a key election issue.

    Allawi's scathing assessment of the collapse of human rights in Iraq under the country's first democratically elected government came amid an angry denunciation of the involvement of the Iraq government's institutions in widespread disappearances, torture and assassinations.

    He added that he now had so little faith in the rule of law that he had instructed his own bodyguards to fire on any police car that attempted to approach his headquarters without prior notice, following the implication of police units in many of the abuses.

    Allawi saved his strongest condemnation for the Ministry of the Interior, whose personnel have been accused of being behind much of the abuse: 'The Ministry of the Interior is at the heart of the matter. I am not blaming the minister [Bayan Jabr] himself, but the rank and file are behind the secret dungeons and some of the executions that are taking place.'

    Responding to the former prime minister's comments, Sir Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem foreign affairs spokesman, said: 'It is inconceivable in the higher reaches of the command of the multinational forces that there was not an awareness of what is being done by some Iraqis to their own countrymen.

    'The assertions by Mr Allawi simply underline the catastrophic failure to have a proper strategy in place for the post-war period in Iraq.'
    Bloody incredible...unbelievable. Bush should write a book: 'how to cock something up in ten easy steps'
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    but things were going so well! we were thinking of pulling US troops out early! What could have gone wrong in 3 days? lol

    What a mess.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Seriously. It is such a fucking mess.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Meh, ya break it ya bought it.

    Tough shit.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Zoe
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    Bloody incredible...unbelievable. Bush should write a book: 'how to cock something up in ten easy steps'
    Oh give it a rest already. The only thing that Bush messed up on was not splitting up the place into three separate countries. Iraq should have never come into existance in the first place, but we have the British to thank for that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq#Modern_History

    It's not Bush's fault these people hate each others' guts and want to kill each other at the drop of a hat. It has been a part of their history and way of life for generations. We should have gone in, remove Saddam, create three wholly sovereign nations, supply and help each one equally for a limited amount of time, then get out.
    heh.

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    Gold Member deckchick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Monkey see, monkey do.

    Can you say Vietnam?

    That whole mess is not going to improve until either the "US coalition" leaves so the UN peace-keepers can get involved, OR until dubya is gone from office and let a real leader clean up that mess...
    Vegetarian - Old Indian word for "Bad Hunter"

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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe View Post
    Oh give it a rest already. The only thing that Bush messed up on was not splitting up the place into three separate countries. Iraq should have never come into existance in the first place, but we have the British to thank for that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq#Modern_History

    It's not Bush's fault these people hate each others' guts and want to kill each other at the drop of a hat. It has been a part of their history and way of life for generations. We should have gone in, remove Saddam, create three wholly sovereign nations, supply and help each one equally for a limited amount of time, then get out.
    Yeah, or not have gone in at all and left Iraq to the devices of the Iraqi's instead of trying to 'impose' western style democracy as a cheap guise to get at their oil.

    I mean, that's just for starters. Are you absolutely sure that's the ONLY thing Bush messed up on? I seem to recall about 3 or 4 years of fuck ups, mistakes, ideological nonsense and blind faith happening. Where were you?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by buttmunch
    Bloody incredible...unbelievable. Bush should write a book: 'how to cock something up in ten easy steps'


    Oh give it a rest already. The only thing that Bush messed up on was not splitting up the place into three separate countries. Iraq should have never come into existance in the first place, but we have the British to thank for that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq#Modern_History

    It's not Bush's fault these people hate each others' guts and want to kill each other at the drop of a hat. It has been a part of their history and way of life for generations. We should have gone in, remove Saddam, create three wholly sovereign nations, supply and help each one equally for a limited amount of time, then get out.
    The only thing Bush messed up? That's hilarious. The fact is, he shouldn't have dragged us in there in the first place, especially under false pretenses. Second, he should have had a bloody plan ready to go, but nooooo, that would've been too intelligent. There are so many things he's done wrong in this area and others that I could spend from now until Christmas writing about it and I still wouldn't have enough time. He is a big, dumb fuck up who cocked up the whole thing. And yes, yes the British, way back in 1932, gave independence to Iraq but it was the REaganites who legitimized his reign in the '80's. Anyone have a copy of that great Rummy/Saddam happy fest?


    And are you suggesting that the British are responsible for the Bush-sponsored reign of torture that is currently going on there?
    Last edited by buttmunch; November 27th, 2005 at 02:10 PM.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

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    Gold Member deckchick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe View Post
    Oh give it a rest already. The only thing that Bush messed up on was not splitting up the place into three separate countries. Iraq should have never come into existance in the first place, but we have the British to thank for that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq#Modern_History

    It's not Bush's fault these people hate each others' guts and want to kill each other at the drop of a hat. It has been a part of their history and way of life for generations. We should have gone in, remove Saddam, create three wholly sovereign nations, supply and help each one equally for a limited amount of time, then get out.
    But it is Bush's fault that America is there fighting.

    Iraq should have never come into existance in the first place, but we have the British to thank for that

    Actually the Iraq was part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries. The demise of that was because of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. That treaty involved Britan, Greece, Italy & USA.
    Vegetarian - Old Indian word for "Bad Hunter"

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam



    Or if you prefer...

    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Thanks Grimm. If only Saddam had toed the line, he'd still be building presidential palaces off the oil revenue from the west.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
    --Sinclair Lewis

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    Zoe
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Oh, where do I begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by deckchick
    That whole mess is not going to improve until either the "US coalition" leaves so the UN peace-keepers can get involved, OR until dubya is gone from office and let a real leader clean up that mess...
    About the UN part - are you serious? Ever heard of Rwanda? You say that as if you honestly believe they have the ability to wave a magic wand and bring instant peace to the region. About the real leader part - once again you glossed over a very important part of my post - the history of hatred and violence that these people have had for each other since before Bush was even born. Don't tell me you are implying that these different factions got along great with each other up until we invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Yeah, or not have gone in at all and left Iraq to the devices of the Iraqi's instead of trying to 'impose' western style democracy as a cheap guise to get at their oil.

    I mean, that's just for starters. Are you absolutely sure that's the ONLY thing Bush messed up on? I seem to recall about 3 or 4 years of fuck ups, mistakes, ideological nonsense and blind faith happening. Where were you?
    Doing my cheers for Bush. Where else? When I said "the only thing Bush messed up on", I meant in terms of post-war management strategy. I have always had doubts in the back of my mind about the plausibility of creating a "little America" in the Middle East. The ingredients just aren't there. Americans can still pretty much get along with each other politically and culturally nowadays without resorting to mass murder - these people can't. If he had done it my way, we most likely would have lost less men, and quite possibly have been out by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch
    The only thing Bush messed up? That's hilarious. The fact is, he shouldn't have dragged us in there in the first place, especially under false pretenses. Second, he should have had a bloody plan ready to go, but nooooo, that would've been too intelligent.
    He did have a plan, unfortunately it was not quite perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch
    And yes, yes the British, way back in 1932, gave independence to Iraq but it was the REaganites who legitimized his reign in the '80's. Anyone have a copy of that great Rummy/Saddam happy fest?
    What does Reagan and Rumsfeld's handshake have to do with present-day post war strategy? Please try to stay on topic Buttmunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch
    And are you suggesting that the British are responsible for the Bush-sponsored reign of torture that is currently going on there?
    Um...no. The British are responsible for continuing to keep these very diverse groups of people together unnaturally when they should have been separated, as I'm sure they would have wished. No one except the thugs who want to have their revenge and settle past scores are responsible for the current internal torture and bloodbath. Where you got the idea from the article that it is Bush's fault I'll never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by deckchick
    But it is Bush's fault that America is there fighting.
    We would have never ended up there if Congress didn't give the green light. Try to remember that. You are giving the man too much credit and power.
    heh.

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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Half of congress was bamboozled, and the other half were outright pork barrel liars in bed with the energy industry, not to mention the fucked up right wing christian nutjobs who see this whole endeavor as some kind of divine providence.

    Bush had no plan going in, or if he did it was the barest sketching. Greeted as liberators? False. Rose petals strewn at feet? False. Post war planning of any kind? None. They severely misjudged the situation on the ground because they were too busy creating fantasies in their heads and promoting ideology over facts and data.

    Bush still can't bring himself to admit any kind of wrongdoing, and it's just hilarious to watch this thing unfold with him proclaiming in an Orwellian fashion that things are just peachy.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Zoe
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Half of congress was bamboozled, and the other half were outright pork barrel liars in bed with the energy industry, not to mention the fucked up right wing christian nutjobs who see this whole endeavor as some kind of divine providence.
    First of all, Christian nutjobs had pretty much nothing to do with the decision to invade Iraq. They are an admittedly influential group in this country, but not at the level you ascribe them. They don't even deserve being mentioned in this thread. Second, Congress is made up of some of the most intelligent citizens we have in this country. Crooked as hell, but intelligent. We are not talking about country bumpkins here. If what you say is true, and "half of Congress was bamboozled", then we have a lot more on our plates to worry about than just "El Shrubbo".
    heh.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current human rights abuses in Iraq could eclipse those of Saddam

    I have to disagree. Evangelicals and their hideous leaders are VERY influential in US politics today, disgustingly so. Lobby groups, pressure groups, 'organizations' to put the term loosely.. they have their grubby mits into everything. The power behind the republicans IS the religious right, that's the base.

    Second, Congress is made up of some of the most intelligent citizens we have in this country. Crooked as hell, but intelligent. We are not talking about country bumpkins here. If what you say is true, and "half of Congress was bamboozled", then we have a lot more on our plates to worry about than just "El Shrubbo".
    The rest of the planet saw what a crock this misadventure was, and yet still half your congress got sucked into it or was pressured into it by threats of anti-americanism and lack of patriotism.

    You do have to worry, and you've had to worry this whole time.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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