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Thread: Immigration amendment fails -Sen. kills proposals; votes on other key amndmnts conts.

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    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    Arrow Immigration amendment fails -Sen. kills proposals; votes on other key amndmnts conts.

    Immigration amendment fails
    Senate kills proposals; votes on other key amendments continue
    The Associated Press
    Updated: 12:48 p.m. PT June 27, 2007
    WASHINGTON - The Senate defeated attempts Wednesday to make the immigration bill tougher on people who are in the U.S. unlawfully, including a Republican bid to bar illegal immigrants from getting green cards.

    Senators voted 56-41 to set aside the amendment by Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., which would have destroyed a central element of the bill granting millions of illegal immigrants an eventual path to citizenship.

    Earlier, the Senate killed, by a 53-45 vote, a proposal by Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, to require that all adult illegal immigrants go home within two years to get permanent lawful status. The current bill requires only heads of household seeking permanent legal residency to return home to apply for green cards.

    A Democratic amendment restricting legal status to those who have been in the United States for four years also failed. The existing measure would make all those in the U.S. as of Jan. 1, 2007, eligible for legalization.

    The vote to kill that proposal, by Democratic Sen. Jim Webb, D-Va., was 79-18.

    Response to conservatives
    All the amendments were designed to respond to conservatives who decry President Bush’s immigration bill as a form of amnesty for illegal immigrants.


    The Senate was also turning to Democratic amendments that would give family members of citizens and legal permanent residents more chances to immigrate.

    Without her return-home amendment, Hutchison said, “the amnesty tag that has been put on this bill will remain. It is the key issue in the bill for the American people.”

    Webb said his proposal would raise the public’s comfort level with granting lawful status to illegal immigrants.

    “People in this country who traditionally would be supporting fair immigration policies, but who are worried about the legalization process in this bill, would come forward and support this,” Webb said.


    The revived immigration measure, which also would toughen border security and institute a new system for weeding out illegal immigrants from workplaces, is facing steep challenges from the right and left.

    Conservatives call the measure too lenient toward unlawful immigrants, while liberals say it could rip apart families and doom guest workers to exploitation at the hands of unscrupulous employers.

    Trench warfare
    Votes on key amendments were continuing Wednesday afternoon under a complex and carefully orchestrated procedure designed to overcome stalling tactics by conservative foes. It will allow votes only on a limited list of 26 amendments before a critical test-vote on the bill Thursday.


    “It’s going to be a rough ride,” said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., an architect of the bill. “We’re in trench warfare.”

    Republican framers of the bill were proposing their own, less burdensome return-home requirement for illegal immigrants. It would apply only to heads of household and would give them three years to meet the requirement.

    Conservatives, irate at a process that has essentially stymied their ability to filibuster, said Senate leaders were trying to rush through a bad bill.

    “The process has not been a pretty one,” said Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala.


    2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
    URL: Immigration amendment fails - Politics - MSNBC.com
    UGH! Something needs to be done and put in the books regarding this issue; its about time and what congress does (the two parties voting against eachother all the time) is so frustrating!

    Also, does anyone on here have any good reason why illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to stay and become citizens (and dont give me terrorism, thats a bullshit response unless you can explain otherwise ).

    my thoughts are; the more the merrier. Make them legal and then they get to enjoy the benefits of the USA but have the sacrifices Americans have too ie: taxes, payment for crimes (if committed), non-anonymity etc. etc. checks and balances. We certainly have enough land and could use the tax money to pay for this trillions of dollars war for example (and one reason why I think Bush is so for the guest worker program)...

    I think the root of a lot of ppl's position against this is just racism pure and simple. I think the feelings would be different if most these illegal immigrants were White/caucasion and spoke English as a first language.

    But its like; why am I better or more deserving of my citizenship just b/c i was lucky enough (to me I'm lucky to be where I am you - might not agree) to be born in the US?!

    also if I'm wrong about anything, please educate me! I'd like a well informed conversation not a hateful and rude debate

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    Elite Member darksithbunny's Avatar
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    I say make them serve in the military for 4 years and then go ahead and give them citizenship.

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    Hi Alice


    Some illegal alien males do not believe that women have rights


    Some do not see rape as a crime

    Some are very bigoted towards blacks , disabled citizens, gays , Jews and others


    Women and children have been forgotten in illegal alien debate

    US should not import more problem people

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    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    edit: sorry for seeming so abrupt w/ my reply jessica.
    ok no more ignorant posts like that ^ Please. and if you're going to post something like that state your source b/c there are plenty of AMERICAN men who feel the same way! Look at Bobby Cutts and the wrestler who just murdered his wife and son; both American men and bastards. Remember every point has a counterpoint.
    my counterpoint: if we make "problem people" who are here illegally legal then we can put them through our justice system instead of deporting them where they can just come right back whenever they please like so many do and stay under the radar of our justice system and other systems b/c they have no documents associated with their identity. Make them legal and they're a whole lot easier to track down if need be. Even when American peodofiles go oversees to do their crimes; they are tracked down and brought back and put through our justice system. face it; if you become american, there's no getting out! Look at the Max Factor heir who raped all those women and fled to mexico. His ass was tracked down by none other than Dog the Bounty hunter and brought back to the US, put on trial, and sent to jail!

    On another note; In this country all those things you said do not fly like they do in other underdeveloped backwards-thinking countries and if and when a man like that came here and became a citizen he would have another thing coming! He might find himself working for a female superior or renting from a female landlord or shop at a franchise owned by a female and want to run his ass back to his country, but hopefully he would change for the better instead and contribute to the land of opportunity.
    Last edited by AliceInWonderland; June 27th, 2007 at 09:03 PM.

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    Ah Alice thanks for the open minded post.
    Jessica, your the reason people have turned this debate into a racist one. As I have stated here many times, I am a Mexican immigrant and if you ever met me you would never, ever know it unless I told you. I am just as American as the next person. I contribute greatly to this country and am glad that back in 1986 when President Reagan granted amnesty, it allowed me to live the dream my parents had for me. Does something need to be done about immigration? Absolutely. Anyone with an inkling of knowledge in economics knows how important this issue is. Like Alice said before, if you are going to post at least make it sound like you put some thought into it.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    So i have a question:

    once these people are integrated, will industry pay them a normal wage to pick fruit?

    Of course not.

    They'll just get MORe guest workers and the newly legal aliens, lacking in skills and education, will become a wave of homeless bottomscratchers trying desperately to survive.

    Sounds like a great idea to me!

    derr!
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    well of course i believe that the US govt. needs to do something about our borders and implementing our policies and vote into place new ones too. but what to do w/ the millions already here; these are real human beings like you and me w/ families and their whole lives waging on this decision of to what country they belong in. I just couldnt agree w/ sending anyone back to a country they somehow managed to get out of. Where would that even end? Many of them have kids who were born here!

    Also the US govt. needs to be harder on the Mexican govt. (and other govt. w/ poor human rights behavior) for example and not allow shit to slide anymore like we have in the past w/ dictatorships and communist govts. They need to be sanctioned if their corruption is still going to be the way it is where it keeps the vast majority of its ppl in poverty w/ a very few ruling upper class families.
    but yes, i feel that the borders need to be secured and new policy put into place, but that those who are here shouldnt be sent back to where they came from. I also believe in cheaper but good education for all. I never vote for politician who want to or have raised state college tuitions for example like the govenator. I believe that education is the key but its a dog eat dog world and those who want it bad enough have that chance. change is a constant though.

    another thing; every group has a bad apple, i dont think that can be avoided. And who's to say if someones lacking a skill or not, the illegal immigrants i know all contribute in one way or another; they're not the ones at the social services building and they don't pay thousands of dollars to a coyote and risk their very life and everything they know to cross the border and sit on a couch somewhere all day watching Oprah. thats just absurd.

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    Elite Member DeChayz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AliceInWonderland View Post
    I think the feelings would be different if most these illegal immigrants were White/caucasion and spoke English as a first language.
    I think you're probably right about that, Alice
    BUT it feels like a slap in the face to all the past generations of families who went about immigrating to the US the right way - filling out paperwork & waiting for approval just to get into the country, then having to wait some more to take the test (that a lot of Americans probably couldn't pass themselves) to become citizens.

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    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    Also, does anyone on here have any good reason why illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to stay and become citizens (and dont give me terrorism, thats a bullshit response unless you can explain otherwise ).
    Yes. They're here ILLEGALLY. They're using our resources and not paying equally into the tax system. When they send their kids to our schools, we usually end up paying for those kids to eat 2 meals a day with the free lunch program. They're also holding back the other kids in their classes because they don't speak English and the teacher is required by law to accommodate them (I have first hand experience with this). They're lowering the quality of our schools, flooding our hospitals, bringing in new diseases, etc and it's senseless to reward them for it. I have no respect for people who come into this country illegally with the intent of taking advantage of our tax-paying citizens. I don't understand how anyone could actually honestly feel that having them here is beneficial to anyone other than themselves.
    Last edited by southernbelle; June 27th, 2007 at 10:41 PM.

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    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    (This should make everyone think, be you Democrat, Republican or
    Independent)

    From a California school teacher:

    "As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal
    immigration, there are some things of which you should be aware:

    I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a
    large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school,
    meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels.

    Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell
    Gardens, Huntington Park, Montebello, etc., where these students are
    protesting, are also
    Title 1 schools.

    Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When
    I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full
    breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a
    Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of
    it being
    dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

    I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least
    moderately overweight. About 75% or more have cell phones. The
    school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage mothers (some
    young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to
    arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT

    WORK)

    I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding
    for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my
    budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the
    computer learning center, half of which, one month later, had been carved with

    graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful
    to
    have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

    I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers
    whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the
    country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers,
    calling them "Putas" (whores) and throwing things, that the teachers were in
    tears.

    Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is it any
    wonder
    they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights,
    privileges
    and even greater entitlements?

    To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants
    contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and
    they LIKE to pay less for tomatoes: Spend some time in the REAL world of
    illegal
    immigration and see the TRUE costs.

    Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more
    crime, lower
    standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc,
    etc. For me,
    I'll pay more for tomatoes!

    We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because
    we won't have the guts to enforce it.

    Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and
    return to Mexico when their tenure is up?

    There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute
    to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage
    and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

    It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture
    that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and
    dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an
    American culture that has become so weak and worried about always being
    "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.”

    CHEAP LABOR?

    Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

    Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

    Consumers don't want expensive produce.

    Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

    But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth,
    a farce, and a lie! There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

    Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a
    job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays
    no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return,
    he gets
    an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

    He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

    He qualifies for food stamps.

    He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

    His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

    He requires bilingual teachers and books.

    He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

    If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for Social
    Security. And once they qualify for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All
    of
    this is at (our) taxpayer's expense.

    He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners
    insurance.

    Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material

    He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in
    benefits.

    Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after
    paying their bills and his.

    The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash
    clean-up.

    Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!

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    They do pay taxes. They also pump in billions into social security and will never see a dime of it. Your post is nothing but ignorant.

    "Bringing in new diseases." Are you kidding me? I don't even want to know your reasoning. Nothing but stupid, uneducated, racist rants.

    You also realize that there is an estimated 1+ million Chinese undocumented immigrants. This is not only a Mexican issue.

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    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    The majority of them actually don't.

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    Gold Member latinaforever's Avatar
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    Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When
    I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full
    breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a
    Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of
    it being
    dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
    i say give them bread and water-that will teach them to act like the rest of the country.


    I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least
    moderately overweight. About 75% or more have cell phones. The
    school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage mothers (some
    young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to
    arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK
    this is her reasoning - fat kids and unwed mothers???? she could be discribing any american.


    I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding
    for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my
    budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the
    computer learning center, half of which, one month later, had been carved with

    graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful
    to
    have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
    omg-she was trying to save the goverment some money-how patriotic
    notice she did not mention the other students that were gratefull for new computers-or the chance to learn.

    and the dumbest statement out of the whole post(if that's possible) is the new diseases argument--plain stupidity and ignorance.
    Last edited by latinaforever; June 28th, 2007 at 01:07 AM.
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    Have you ever spent time with a family or someone who is undocumented?You would find people who work hard and just want a better life. I find your post horribly offensive because I am an immigrant and am nothing like what your post says. Nor did my family ever take a dime of financial aid. There are many Americans who abuse the system. I also believe that there needs to be overhauls in all areas. I hate when I see a perfectly healthy person who can work, receiving welfare. Regardless of what ethnicity they are. I know how difficult middle class has become. Your not rich enough to get great medical care and you have too much money to get help. It sucks. But I don't blame it on Mexicans. There nothing more than scare tactics. Are there a bad seeds? Yes. But who doesn't have bad seeds. Mexicans have become scapegoats for our broken system. Don't lump everyone into one pile. And they do pay taxes and pay into the system. It is estimated that they pay 7 billion dollars a year and will never recieve any benefits when they turn 65.

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    Gold Member latinaforever's Avatar
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    lucky 32, you are awesome!
    When you're strange
    Faces come out of the rain

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