Torture ban bill passes Senate...will Bush veto?

[buttmunch]

By John Diamond, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — The Senate passed a defense bill Tuesday that would ban torture of terrorism detainees and grant them limited access to federal courts.
By an 84-14 vote, the Senate passed an amendment that would allow the roughly 500 detainees at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to appeal convictions by military tribunals if they face the death penalty or at least 10 years in prison. The appeals would be heard in federal court. Detainees also would be allowed to appeal their designation as enemy combatants.

The proposal would allow the court review in place of the right to file habeas corpus petitions in federal courts, a right affirmed by the Supreme Court in 2004. The Bush administration has said the detainees have no right to appeal. Tuesday's vote set a middle ground.


USA TODAY
Graham

The proposal by Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., was attached to a defense bill that passed 98-0. The amendment asks President Bush to push Iraq to take over its own security and get U.S. troops home as soon as possible.

Another provision passed this month would ban cruel and inhuman treatment of prisoners and establishes the Army Field Manual as the governmentwide guide for all interrogations. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., the sponsor, was tortured during the more than five years he spent in a North Vietnamese prison during the Vietnam War.

Bush has said repeatedly that the United States does not torture prisoners. He opposes the measure because he says it would limit interrogators' ability to get information from terrorism suspects, and he has threatened to veto the defense bill if it includes that amendment.

Administration officials have been meeting with lawmakers to find a compromise, said Jamal Ware, spokesman for Rep. Pete Hoekstra, the House Intelligence Committee chairman who has been involved in the meetings.

CIA interrogators need a clear policy because they have been holding back in their questioning of detainees out of concerns they may be held liable for abuse of prisoners, said Rep. Jane Harman of California, the top Democrat on the intelligence committee.

"Our interrogators have become risk-averse," Harman said. "Someone interrogating a detainee is afraid they'll find himself on the front page. ... I want our interrogations to yield the best possible information. ... That's why we need a legal framework."

State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said Tuesday that U.S. forces "receive clear guidelines" on the treatment of detainees.

Graham disagrees. "We've been on the sidelines as our own troops have been confused about what's in bounds and what's out of bounds," he told reporters. "We got off the sidelines today."

A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll last weekend found that 74% of Americans believe U.S. soldiers or other government officers have committed torture in Iraq or elsewhere. The poll also found that 38% would be willing to have U.S. officials torture terrorism suspects who may know about future attacks while 56% opposed such torture in those circumstances.

[deckchick]

Of course they use torture. It is just heartbreaking to see how low our governments have fallen. I saw our, because as a Canadian, while we haven't tortured anyone (I hope), my government has been shown to be just as morally corrupt as the USA.

How has this happened? North America has been perceived as the good guys, freedom and justice for all. Bullshit. The USA allowed itself to be sucked into an unjust war, damaging its reputation almost beyond repair. For what? I know I don't believe for a second that it was to oust the "Evil Saddam". I also don't believe the other side that says it was all about the oil. Somewhere in the middle is probably the answer. In proceeding with the war, all that Bush has really done is foster a new generation of terrorists. I know if my country was invaded, my home bombed, and family killed and maimed, I too would be hard-pressed not to pick up a gun or do something about it.

Yes Saddam was a bad man. Yes he used chemical weapons on his own people. But for god sakes that was in 1988! Why was it OK then, but now was used as a reason to invade?

Yes Saddam tortured his own people, now the U.S. forces are doing the same damn thing.

It is way past time to develop a realistic exit strategy and get the hell out of Vietnam... oops I mean Iraq.

Here is two links to articles that make for excellent reading.

torture - NY Times Article - http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/14/op...ochemarks.html

An excellent article from DoD with Lt. Gen. Petraeus regarding the readiness of the Iraqi Forces. http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2005/...1005-4021.html

(if you cannot access these articles, let me know and I will either post them or email them to you.)

I am in now way endorsing or condemning the situation. I am just heartbroken at the loss of life for both the American families that have lost loved ones, and the Iraqi families who have also.

[buttmunch]

FAntastic post. I'm going to check out the links now and will let you know if I can access them. The one good thing right now is that more and more people are disbelieving el Shrubbo and his gang of merry making war mongers. I just hope they remember all this and more come election day.

[Mr. Authority]

Good post deckchick.

I agree with ya buttmunch that Bush is having a hard time being taken seriously. His apporval rating is below 35%, he has pretty much alienated the Republican party, and his constant flip-flopping (the "We don't torture" thing comes to mind) have left him without a clear and legible position.

[buttmunch]

He's on the ropes and he'll come back nastier than ever. Can't wait to see what his next move is. I just hope a REAL crisis doesn't pop up, because then we're all fucked.