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Thread: Health care: A value, not a right

  1. #1
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Default Health care: A value, not a right

    Opinion Editorial by Tibor Machan - Feb 19, 2007

    Health care is not a right — one cannot have a right to other people’s services. These must be provided voluntarily.
    The voluntary provision of health care means that doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals would, if they were free men and women, provide to people they would choose as recipients, on terms they regard as acceptable.
    These values are not owed to anyone unless first agreed to be provided. Doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals may not be placed into involuntary servitude to people needing their services. The relationships must be voluntary, no matter how vital the services in question are to the recipients.
    The belief that people may be justly coerced so as to secure funds to pay medical professionals who will then service those who need their work is an error — or a ruse. In a free country adult men and women must treat each other as ends in themselves, not as unwilling tools, instruments, or means to each other’s ends.
    Just as someone may not go over to one’s neighbors’ homes to conscript them to come and mow one’s lawn or drive one to the hospital but must ask for this and await willingly given help, so any service such as medical care must be obtained without coercion.
    Some people believe that once it has been democratically determined that people must pay for medical services for everyone, there is nothing wrong with collecting taxes for this purpose. This view is wrong because no group — or majority of a group — may take what belongs to others.
    It is no less unjust to do such a thing than it is to hang someone because the majority in some town decides it is acceptable to do so, without first following due process, namely demonstrating through a justice system that the hanging is deserved.
    The myth of having a right to medical care, and all sorts of other services that need the work or resources of others, leads to the view that people can proceed with their lives without having to be responsible for producing — or obtaining via voluntary interaction — whatever living requires.
    There are all kinds of costs people must cover and be prepared to cover, alone or with the voluntary cooperation through trade, charity, generosity, or grant of loans of others. Imposing such costs on unwilling others is like dumping pollution on unwilling others, a natural crime.
    Arnold Schwarzenegger should not be complicit in perpetrating the myth of health care rights. He should follow the lead of his late friend, Milton Friedman, and champion a truly free society, including a completely voluntary system of doctor-patient relationships. Anything else is bad for both parties, although it may appear otherwise — as most moral shortcuts do, initially. Securing health care by means of the police power of government is bad for us all.
    I am probably whistling in the dark about this (and many other matters having to do with how people should relate to one another on a completely voluntary basis). Too many hope that when the government secures for them what others can do they will escape being victims of such coercion.
    Slavery, even the more moderate version involved in the universal health care scheme, gains its support mostly from folks who think they will never be the slaves, only the masters.
    Yet as history shows, this is a futile hope. When the policy of obtaining services from others through coercion gains widespread acceptance, in the end no one can escape becoming a victim.
    This is one reason the American founders opted for a country in which everyone has unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and no one may be coerced for any purpose at all — that’s what unalienable means! But their teaching was largely premature. Too many of us still suffer from the governmental habit, the worst habit of them all.
    Tibor Machan is the R. C. Hoiles Professor of Business Ethics & Free Enterprise at Chapman University's Argyros School of B&E and is a research fellow at the Pacific Research Institute (San Francisco, CA) and the Hoover Institution (Stanford University, CA).


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    Elite Member cynic's Avatar
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    ......this is exactly what I was saying under the housing thread.....citizens are not "entitled" to things that others HAVE to pay for.... I do support charities, but do not support charity through government agencies.......that removes the individual's decision to donate.

    If we do not all pay more financially for bad life's decisions, then what is our motivation to change and make better life's decisions?

    I know that sometimes shit happens, but money is the best way to "motivate" someone to change their behavior......fear is best....but that would get messy in a hurry......

    The ideal is that working harder will reap more benefits...that ideal should be encouraged by the government......

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    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    ......this is exactly what I was saying under the housing thread.....citizens are not "entitled" to things that others HAVE to pay for.... I do support charities, but do not support charity through government agencies.......that removes the individual's decision to donate.
    Cynic, I agree with that statement.

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    Elite Member missbazilb's Avatar
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    In Canada, I think that is why there is such a problem with our health care system right now. Overfunded, but so much waste and services are completely overloaded. Hospitals are overcapacity, people wait too long for treatment and tests, but people go to the doctor for just about any little thing, and go to emergency rooms because they don't feel well, or have some little injury. They feel completely entitled, because here, we've had socialized healthcare since 1956. They don't know how much anything costs, so they act like spoiled children, and don't realize if they cut back, we might be able to fix this system slightly.

    We're a country of under 40 million people, I can't see trying to manage a socialized healthcare system for a country of 300 million. It would be an absolute nightmare!

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Sorry, accessible healthcare is a necessity. Housing, eh.. not so much. You can do a lot to rectify your housing situation but health you can only do so much.

    Letting people die in their homes, otherwise productive members of society who simply cannot afford the ridiculous rates that is a hideous practice.

    Putting SOME money into a system that is for the collective good of all (yourself included), especially something as serious as health, is not a great hardship.

    I find a lot of ubercapitalist societal thinking, this intensely selfish ME ME ME fetish, to be disturbing and contributes nothing to the collective in which you live.

    You're not some fucking island, you live in a community. You are bound to it by culture and experience. It just makes sense tfor everyone to contribute a little bit SOMEWHERE.

    You don't have to be a bleeding heart, because that will just create a dependency... but SOME communal responsibility is required for society to function peacably.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member shedevilang's Avatar
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    I agree with you Grimm. I think health care should be more attainable for all I know a lot of people who have worked hard all their lives and put money back for surprise expenses and then found out they have a serious medical problem and their insurance and rainy day money isn't enough. This is not just a problem for people with low income. Health care is expensive and it never fails you always breakdown at the worst moment financially.

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    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    This is not just a problem for people with low income.
    You're right. Very low income folks at least can be covered by Medicaid and in many cases their coverage is far superior to most commercial policies and sure as hell surpass Medicare coverage. It's the lower middle/working class that gets it up the ass.

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    Elite Member cynic's Avatar
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    I will gladly pay for other's medical benefits when I can order them to be sterilized. And, I want constant verification of the "need" for medical assistance .....there are quite a few U.S. citizens who are living on government disability checks who are less disabled than I.

    There is a woman here whose husband is on disability and he "cannot get a job because of a back injury", however, it does not keep him from fishing, hunting or doing his yardwork.......he drives several states away to go hunting, so apparently two or three days of driving does not bother his back....only working......

    They have two children....one of which is getting government assistance because she has two children with a crack addict.....and on and on and on and on it goes......generational dysfunction...sponsored by my tax dollars.....

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    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    And, I want constant verification of the "need" for medical assistance .....there are quite a few U.S. citizens who are living on government disability checks who are less disabled than I.

    There is a woman here whose husband is on disability and he "cannot get a job because of a back injury", however, it does not keep him from fishing, hunting or doing his yardwork.......he drives several states away to go hunting, so apparently two or three days of driving does not bother his back....only working......

    They have two children....one of which is getting government assistance because she has two children with a crack addict.....and on and on and on and on it goes......generational dysfunction...sponsored by my tax dollars.....
    I'm under the same impression as you are, Cynic. Mainly because the State system seems inconsistent. The programs are there for the main groups, the aging and the children. They seem to reap most all of the benefits. So, what if you are a young adult trying to make it? I live a very healthy life, but there is only so much you can do to improve without a stronger infrastructure. I find these State programs to based on how many it can put through its system, in order to immunize children in their first years. It just doesn't seem geared for much else.

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    Hit By Ban Bus! UndercoverGator's Avatar
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    When's the last time you tried to find a doctor that would accept the Medicaide standard payment of 3 bucks per visit? Good luck with that one. In this area almost no doctors take Medicaide patients.

    JamieElizabeth, why do you have your panties in such a twist about health care that you keep posting OpEd pieces, just opinions that aren't always factually based, as the gospel truth?

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    ^^.. and always by the same 2 or 3 people, i might add. Where are you getting this stuff?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UndercoverGator View Post
    When's the last time you tried to find a doctor that would accept the Medicaide standard payment of 3 bucks per visit? Good luck with that one. In this area almost no doctors take Medicaide patients.

    JamieElizabeth, why do you have your panties in such a twist about health care that you keep posting OpEd pieces, just opinions that aren't always factually based, as the gospel truth?
    lol, you hit that nail on the head, Undercover. I don't know why I am angry, but I do stay fairly agitated. I'm new to all of this- home ownership and medical. My impression to society so far is that is that is overly pushy and very competitive. I don't like that aspect at all of society. It leaves me blindsighted.\ I'm sure that you know a lot more about this topic given your career? I feel selfish saying these things, but like I said, I feel blindsighted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Sorry, accessible healthcare is a necessity. Housing, eh.. not so much. You can do a lot to rectify your housing situation but health you can only do so much.

    Letting people die in their homes, otherwise productive members of society who simply cannot afford the ridiculous rates that is a hideous practice.

    Putting SOME money into a system that is for the collective good of all (yourself included), especially something as serious as health, is not a great hardship.

    I find a lot of ubercapitalist societal thinking, this intensely selfish ME ME ME fetish, to be disturbing and contributes nothing to the collective in which you live.

    You're not some fucking island, you live in a community. You are bound to it by culture and experience. It just makes sense tfor everyone to contribute a little bit SOMEWHERE.

    You don't have to be a bleeding heart, because that will just create a dependency... but SOME communal responsibility is required for society to function peacably.
    I TOTALLY agree.

    My high school civics teacher always said "Taxes are the price we pay for civilization." We cannoy get around it. We are not islands. We do need to function somewhat as a community and make sure people do not fall through the cracks in a devastating way.

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    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    ^^.. and always by the same 2 or 3 people, i might add. Where are you getting this stuff?
    What stuff? The article? The articles are from the same site at the Atlasphere.

    I think that there are blogs on these topics also. And I did go to a convention once in las vegas. And they call it FreedomFighters.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    yes, all the articles you post are by the same 2 or 3 people who all have the same opinions, the same political orientation, and the same fear of commie pinkos
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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