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Thread: 2012 Presidential Debate Thread

  1. #91
    Elite Member Seth82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat Scorp View Post
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  2. #92
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    This made me chuckle.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatheball View Post
    Everyone's health care costs go up with Obamacare. I actually spoke with the director of Public Health in our state. She gave a great analogy about "free" health care and weddings. How many drinks do you have at a cash bar at a wedding? Two or three? How many do you have if it's open bar? Five, six, eight? Why? Because it's available and it's free so why the hell not? If people have absolutely no personal investment in their care, they use resources at a much higher rate. I've seen this professionally for over a decade.

    Obama is promising this country much better access to care with HUGE federal subsidies (at least they are promised to the states, who knows how the feds will actually pay the states outside of proposed cuts in Medicare). What isn't taken into consideration is who is going to care for all of these people?

    I work at a state run hospital which, up until last year, cared for a large percentage of Medicaid patients. In addition, we cared for almost all of the patients who did not qualify for Medicaid (no dependent children etc) but met certain financial restrictions. They are covered under a state funded program. While the numbers in each program are protected, the guesstimate is that 60-100K people are involved in the two programs together. All of them had to go through our hospital. That led to incredibly long wait times for those who had chronic illnesses or just needed to establish care. It wasn't unusual to have a 6-12 month wait.

    Our system got completely flooded. Part of that is that we get even less money per dollar than we do for private insurance companies (who pay us 21 cents for every dollar we actually bill out). Revenue goes down. Resources dwindle. Provider satisfaction plummets and doctors/PAs/ARNPs leave leaving the public with an even worse problem.

    With Obamacare, the estimate in our state alone is that an additional 200,000 people will be added to this system. There are not enough providers available to treat these people. Obama has promised us the federal government will subsidize the increase in Medicaid for the first three years. After that, it's up to us to figure out how to pay for it.

    I know my views on this issue aren't popular here (or most other places). I've lived this issue for my entire career. Obama is promising things that seem ideal and we all feel good for supporting him by waiving the "I'm a Humanitarian" flag. The truth is, this is not well thought out and we will all pay for it in one way or another.

    Before anyone asks, I'm no fan of Romney either and find his own health care policies in Mass. are somewhat similar.
    I see Obamacare easing up on you folks over there. IowaCare has severe limitations, in my opinion. If you are on IowaCare, the only place you can go is to Bella's hospital, or one in DesMoines. So people would have to drive an hour+ just to be seen. I had a friend who was put on IowaCare when her hubby lost his job, and it there was a 6-9 month waiting list for a well exam. She's like, "I have strep, I just need someone to write me a script." Couldn't use IowaCare at a walk in clinic, and she didn't want to go to the emergency room for strep. So instead, she begged her friends and family for any leftover penicillin they had.

    The hospitals I talk to seem to be ok with Obamacare. I think they see it as they will now have more patients that will use their services. I think it would provide relief to you if half of those people were now able to go to their local provider for basic services.

    I know a gal who has serious health issues, chronic pain, severe diabetes that she's having a hard time controlling with insulin, early onset arthritis, anyway, she was going to go see at specialist at UIHC that appearantly is not on her insurance's provider list, so now she's stuck. She has no idea what to do now.

    My mom worked at United right before she retired. She would tell me horror stories about how United would purposely deny claims they technically should pay for, just because they know most people won't dispute it. They'll only pay it if someone calls to complain. She counted her days til retirement.

    I like some of the initiatives in Obamacare. No lifetime limits, no preexisting conditions. But I think it's really harder than it needs to be.
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  4. #94
    Elite Member Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    The media coverage here of the debate was hilarious. The first headlines this morning focused on the actual performance of the candidates, Romney was made out to be the winner. Then, minutes later, it all changed and it became all about big bird. Funny.
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  5. #95
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    Obama is anything but dim. But I think Romney playing dirty with such a gross distortion of facts and doing a total turnaround on the issues (and making it look like it wasn't) threw him for a loop.

    Like I said, how are you supposed to successfully debate anyone who will say anything, keeps changing (or writing their own delusional definition of, would be a better phrase) their stance.

    I think he has been too nice from the get go his whole presidency. He will have to play dirty like these guys if he wants to win, obviously. I wish he'd done a much better job of calling this jackass on his bullshit. Because that guy was laying a whole block with it.
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    ^^^^
    say what you want about obama but he's far from dim. if anything, he is one of the most intelligent men the US has ever elected - and that's got nothing to do with his performance as president, i'm talking straight up intelligence here. i really think he held back for some stupid reason. not necessarily to be 'nice', more likely because his advisers and PR people told him that if he got too bitchy on mitt or something, it would turn people off or something. america doesn't like 'smart' and anti-intellectual sentiment is strong with a huge segment of the population, always has been. just like biden held back with sarah palin at the last election, even though he could have reduced her to a pulp in 15 seconds if he'd felt like it.
    I think his intelligence may have been his handicap here, along with the fact that he doesn't have the communication skills of Bill Clinton, another intelligent president. From what I've seen of the debate, you could see that Romney was pretty much a robot, with vacant eyes, who must have a photogenic memory because like a trained dog he recited what he's been rehearsing for months. And Obama's irritated expressions half the time were probably caused by his awareness that many of the things Romney said were not (fully) true and the consequences they would have etc. In other words: his brain was "running away with it", when he really should have just called Romney out on it.
    It's also been suggested it may have been a tactic for Obama to not react much or at all. If so, I'm not sure he was the right person to pull it off. He's too serious.
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsDark View Post
    Obama is anything but dim. But I think Romney playing dirty with such a gross distortion of facts and doing a total turnaround on the issues (and making it look like it wasn't) threw him for a loop.

    Like I said, how are you supposed to successfully debate anyone who will say anything, keeps changing (or writing their own delusional definition of, would be a better phrase) their stance.

    I think he has been too nice from the get go his whole presidency. He will have to play dirty like these guys if he wants to win, obviously. I wish he'd done a much better job of calling this jackass on his bullshit. Because that guy was laying a whole block with it.

    But shouldn't Obama have handled this much, much better? He wouldn't have had to play dirty, just fucking debate. That's what he was there for! For example, when Mitt kept saying he was going to raise revenue by reducing deductions, Obama should have pounced. First off, I think too many ahmuricans heard the phrasing and think it means a tax break. Seriously.

    Why wasn't Obama pointing out that reducing deductions means, in effect, raising taxes? Why didn't he ask which deductions specifically Romney would close? And if Romney wiggled out of that question, why not ask, Is the child credit deduction up for grabs? That will effect X millions middle class families. Or how about interest on homes? Is that on the table? How about some small business deductions? Are those safe?

    Really, Obama could have at least tried to expose Romney's plans or at a minimum, showed Mitt doesn't have a detailed one, but he didn't. Obama is not dim. He is not playing nice. And as a seasoned debator, getting around Romney's bullshit should not have roadblocked him. Maybe Obama's arrogance (which is always simmering under the surface to me) got the better of him. He wasn't prepared for this Mitt. Perhaps he thinks Romney's skills are too far below his own to have had to worry about it. That's my guess. Or else Obama simply doesn't want to be re-elected.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornFlakegrl View Post
    But shouldn't Obama have handled this much, much better? He wouldn't have had to play dirty, just fucking debate. That's what he was there for! For example, when Mitt kept saying he was going to raise revenue by reducing deductions, Obama should have pounced. First off, I think too many ahmuricans heard the phrasing and think it means a tax break. Seriously.

    Why wasn't Obama pointing out that reducing deductions means, in effect, raising taxes? Why didn't he ask which deductions specifically Romney would close? And if Romney wiggled out of that question, why not ask, Is the child credit deduction up for grabs? That will effect X millions middle class families. Or how about interest on homes? Is that on the table? How about some small business deductions? Are those safe?

    Really, Obama could have at least tried to expose Romney's plans or at a minimum, showed Mitt doesn't have a detailed one, but he didn't.
    I agree. I'll be interested to see the next debate. But if Obama is being overly concerned how he comes across and this is the explanation for him holding back, he needs to stop it and just rip this asshole a new one already.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiswinthorpe111 View Post
    I see Obamacare easing up on you folks over there. IowaCare has severe limitations, in my opinion. If you are on IowaCare, the only place you can go is to Bella's hospital, or one in DesMoines. So people would have to drive an hour+ just to be seen. I had a friend who was put on IowaCare when her hubby lost his job, and it there was a 6-9 month waiting list for a well exam. She's like, "I have strep, I just need someone to write me a script." Couldn't use IowaCare at a walk in clinic, and she didn't want to go to the emergency room for strep. So instead, she begged her friends and family for any leftover penicillin they had.

    The hospitals I talk to seem to be ok with Obamacare. I think they see it as they will now have more patients that will use their services. I think it would provide relief to you if half of those people were now able to go to their local provider for basic services.

    I know a gal who has serious health issues, chronic pain, severe diabetes that she's having a hard time controlling with insulin, early onset arthritis, anyway, she was going to go see at specialist at UIHC that appearantly is not on her insurance's provider list, so now she's stuck. She has no idea what to do now.

    My mom worked at United right before she retired. She would tell me horror stories about how United would purposely deny claims they technically should pay for, just because they know most people won't dispute it. They'll only pay it if someone calls to complain. She counted her days til retirement.

    I like some of the initiatives in Obamacare. No lifetime limits, no preexisting conditions. But I think it's really harder than it needs to be.
    They changed Iowa Care at the start of the year. There are now 5-6 "medical homes" across the state. For instance, if you are in Des Moines, you have to go through Broadlaws...Waterloo is Allen Hospital etc. We thought it would help. It hasn't...at all. At least not in my specialty. The waiting list has just grown.

    There are a variety of opinions in our hospital. Some swear Obamacare is the best thing since sliced bread. They also happen to be the people who don't have a patient population made up almost entirely of Iowa Care patients. For example, all of the "regular" primary care docs (the ones who see those with private payors, title IXX, or Medicaid) love it because they can waive that flag. Those of us who have 50-75% of our patients on Iowa Care see it very differently. I have no freaking idea how we are going to add 200K more people.

  11. #101
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    But, there really is no Obamacare. It's all semantics. We are required to buy private insurance. There is no public option. "Obamacare" just put new requirements and restrictions on insurance providers.

    So there is the bottom of the heap, the dirt poor, who qualify for Medicaid. I tried to get my mom qualified but she owned her house so it was a no go, even though she had no income, was too young for social security, etc. You truly have to have nothing to qualify.

    Then there's people that are still poor but own too much or make too much to qualify for Medicaid, or people who make enough but opt out of coverage. These are the people that Obamacare is trying to get covered. I understand there is going to be some sort of assistance up to a certain income level...tax credits, something? Really unclear on how this works. This is the group that has to pay the penalty if they don't buy coverage.

    Then there are people who pay their part for employer-provided insurance or buy it on their own on the private market. Will they get tax credits (or whatever incentives are offered) too?

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    Here in Massachusetts we have had Romneycare for several years. In addition to providing for universal health care, I believe it included provisions that insurers must follow, such as no denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, mandated coverage of many preventative measures, allowing parents to keep their kids on their policies up to age 26, as long as they're full-time students.
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  14. #104
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