'Intelligent design' supporters dealt another blow

Grimmlok · February 28th, 2006, 04:57 PM

Keep crackin at them, they'll eventually crumble altogether.

Quote:

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- House lawmakers scuttled a bill that would have required public school students to be told that evolution is not empirically proven -- the latest setback for critics of evolution.

The bill's sponsor, Republican state Sen. Chris Buttars, had said it was time to rein in teachers who were teaching that man descended from apes and rattling the faith of students. The Senate earlier passed the measure 16-12.

But the bill failed in the House on a 28-46 vote Monday. The bill would have required teachers to tell students that evolution is not a fact and the state doesn't endorse the theory.

Rep. Scott Wyatt, a Republican, said he feared passing the bill would force the state to then address hundreds of other scientific theories -- "from Quantum physics to Freud" -- in the same manner.

"I would leave you with two questions," Wyatt said. "If we decide to weigh in on this part, are we going to begin weighing in on all the others and are we the correct body to do that?"

Buttars said he didn't believe the defeat means that most House members think Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is correct.

"I don't believe that anybody in there really wants their kids to be taught that their great-grandfather was an ape," Buttars said.

The vote represents the latest loss for critics of evolution. In December, a federal judge barred the school system in Dover, Pa., from teaching intelligent design alongside evolution in high school biology classes.

Also last year, a federal judge ordered the school system in suburban Atlanta's Cobb County to remove from biology textbooks stickers that called evolution a theory, not a fact.

Earlier this year, a rural California school district canceled an elective philosophy course on intelligent design and agreed never to promote the topic in class again.

But critics of evolution got a boost in Kansas in November when the state Board of Education adopted new science teaching standards that treat evolution as a flawed theory, defying the view of science groups.

Um, man IS descended from apes according to the genetic evidence at hand. Why is it fundies have no problem with the crocodile being a long lost dinosaur descendent, but when MAN is involved suddenly we're too special?

Whatever. Grow up.

Idiots.

Sojiita · February 28th, 2006, 05:03 PM

Well this is good news..especially since this was in Mormon Utah-one of our most conservative(read as backwards) states.

Sojiita · February 28th, 2006, 05:21 PM

^^what is pitiful is that some of these religious crazies think that the theory of evolution is basically just that! ..uh..it like takes quite a long time this evolution...

Grimmlok · February 28th, 2006, 05:23 PM

That's a particularely hilarious line...

So despite what is uncovered, if the findings are something you just don't like you can pretend they don't exist!

You can just stick your head in the sand, slap your hands over your ears while screaming LA LA LA LA, or lock the findings up so nobody can know the truth and your little fantasy can continue..

Sojiita · February 28th, 2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimmlok

That's a particularely hilarious line...

So despite what is uncovered, if the findings are something you just don't like you can pretend they don't exist!

You can just stick your head in the sand, slap your hands over your ears while screaming LA LA LA LA, or lock the findings up so nobody can know the truth and your little fantasy can continue..

You should talk to my Christian brother. He says either 1. All of the evidence for evolution was planted there by God to test our faith. or 2. It was planted there by the devil..to test our faith.

Grimmlok · February 28th, 2006, 05:33 PM

What's he basing that on? LOL

Sojiita · February 28th, 2006, 05:42 PM

He is basing it on NOTHING. That is the whole point..it is like talking to Tom Cruise..like they are in a cult..they will ALWAYS try and twist things around so logic, reason, and fact are thrown out of the equation and everything relies on the concept of "Faith".

Grimmlok · February 28th, 2006, 05:57 PM

Please bludgeon him to death.

Sojiita · February 28th, 2006, 06:17 PM

I can't he is my brother..but his way of "debating" is enough to drive a person to murder. I don't even try anymore. When they are like that they really are GONE. Just like in any other cult. I haven't spoken to him in forever but I hear he is "getting a little better"..*must be code words for regaining some sense of sanity* And the worst thing of all: He has NO sense of humor whatsoever. It must be a requirement to give it up..must be a sin to have any sense of humor at all.

Lobelia · February 28th, 2006, 09:37 PM

None of us KNOW what the truth is. For the longest time, the "evidence" led people to believe that the earth was flat. Personally, I don't give a rip. I have no compulsion to interpret the Bible literally, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if evolution turned out to be factual. It doesn't threaten my beliefs in the slightest.

I think schools shouldn't have to suppress any of the significant theories.. Introduce them all. As theories. Just tell the truth - this theory has this kind of evidence, this one not so much, this one is based on religion, whatever. It's all just information, right?

pacific breeze · February 28th, 2006, 10:01 PM

Actually, the Greeks knew the earth was round, as did the Romans. But the Dark Ages plunged everyone back into ignorance, just as the fundies in Islam and America are trying to do now.

I don't have any problem with people believing in intelligent design. But it doesn't belong in schools even as a theory, because it is a DIVISIVE tool used by the fundies to gain a further foothold on the slippery slope between church and state.

Grimmlok · February 28th, 2006, 10:05 PM

It's also not a scientific theory, where evolution is.

it's a religious fairy tale based on nothing.

Lobelia · February 28th, 2006, 10:09 PM

It's not based on "nothing", just nothing that you respect. But that's ok. And whether or not people regressed back into believing the world was flat, it makes no difference. They believed it, and they thought they had good reason.

As far as it being excluded on the basis of it being divisive, well, get ready to throw out a TON of curriculum. Like I said, it's information. What's wrong with information? Let kids, people, decide what they believe. When you try to suppress information, you're no better than the "fundies."

pacific breeze · February 28th, 2006, 10:19 PM

Well, I find it interesting that the fundies cherry pick the science they choose to believe in. Most wouldn't question most modern SCIENTIFIC medical procedures as theory if they or their child were sick, but evolution is considered an theory despite a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary.

I'm not in favour of suppressing information, but "information" posing as religious fervor has no place in schools. If people want to study it in church or at home, I could care less. But not in school. An exception would be made in theology studies or maybe even philosophy, but not in science.

**Tati** · February 28th, 2006, 10:26 PM

I've stated this before (can't recall if on this board or another) but I personally believe that science courses should present the theory of evolution, while high school curriculums should also feature a mandatory "Philosophy & World Religion 101" type of course. This course should study as many religions as possible (there will probably be some small sects that are glossed over, but I do feel it should go beyond just "Judaism/Christianity/Islam - there are a lot more). It should also deal with basic matters of philosophy ie. existensialism/ethics/metaphysics/epistemology. This is very interesting and enlightening information, can lead to a greater sense of compassion and understanding among young people, and is good prep work for university. High school students could only benefit from learning about it in a general survey manner in my opinion.

What needs to be remembered also, is that the word "theory" as applied to evolution (or any scientific matter) does not carry the same meaning as the word "theory" that is often thrown around by the layperson. It does not mean just a basic hypothesis. Whether you believe in evolution or not, it must be recognized that this "theory" is far more established and tested than what we may commonly think of as a "theory".

From dictionary.com, bolding mine:

Quote:

Theory: A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Anyone is welcome to disbelieve it, or to interpret it as being in accordance with the workings of God (as my Orthodox Jewish friends do). But do not make the mistake of throwing around the word "theory" like it is meaningless. (I'm not addressing anyone here specifically, this just seems to come up a lot - I can't stand hearing "it's just a theory" as if that means something.) A working theory in science is, by definition, something that is fairly concrete, just not 100% filled in yet.