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Thread: Face veils: Bans in Europe fail to take hold in U.S.

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    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Default Face veils: Bans in Europe fail to take hold in U.S.

    Face Veils: Bans in Europe Fail to Take Hold in U.S. - TIME

    Wherever face veils go, controversy often follows. In January, almost as soon as a new rule kicked in that bans students from wearing veils and other clothing on campus that obscures their faces, the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences (MCPHS) added a religious exemption, following accusations of discrimination. Despite speculation that the policy was connected to the October arrest of a Muslim former student suspected of planning terror attacks, a spokesman for the college said that the rule had been implemented for safety reasons and was not directed toward any particular student group.

    While the incident was ultimately a minor one — at this private institution, only two of the more than 4,000 students wear veils — it was the first significant flare-up in the U.S. since a Florida woman sued the state in 2002 for refusing to allow her to wear a veil in her driver's license photo. (She lost on appeal.) Meanwhile, the debate over head coverings has been raging in Europe and parts of the Middle East over whether schools and other institutions can ban Muslim clothing such as the hijab (head scarf), the niqab (veil with an opening for the eyes), or the burka (piece of fabric that covers the entire face and body).

    England and France both have rules that allow for the restriction of such clothing in schools. The same is true in Egypt, where a Cairo court recently supported the secular government's decision to ban students from wearing the niqab while taking examinations. The decision, which joins another ruling in this predominantly Muslim country that forbids women from wearing veils in dormitories, is ostensibly designed to prevent students from disguising themselves to take tests for others.
    In the U.S., the Education Testing Service, which administers several national exams, requires photographic identification, such as a driver's license or school ID, in order to take the SAT. For the GRE graduate school exam, a photo must be taken at the actual test site. In both cases, ETS asks test-takers who may be wearing a veil to remove their face covering in order to be identified and prevent any testing fraud. "We have not had any issues related to this policy," which has been in place for more than a decade, says Mark McNutt, an ETS spokesman.

    One reason why religious head coverings have yet to emerge in the U.S. as a significant issue is because of the tiny number of American Muslims who actually cover up. "It's very unpopular," says Jamillah Karim, an assistant professor in religious studies at Spelman College. "A minority of a minority of Muslim women here wear the face veil. It's just not practiced enough where it would become an issue at schools."

    Wearing the niqab is viewed as a more conservative practice, distinct from the more commonly seen, and largely stigma-free, hijab. American Muslims, by and large, are reluctant to appear too conservative, says Kathleen Moore, professor of religious studies at University of California at Santa Barbara. "While they are struggling internally to be tolerant of each other's viewpoints about religion, they are also struggling outward to negotiate rights with the broader American society," she says. "From their voices, you hear that the face veil is something that shouldn't be practiced because it can be associated with extremism."

    Sarah Jukaku, a fifth-year senior at the University of Michigan and president of the school's Muslim Student Association, has a few friends who choose to cover their faces. They've never had problems with taking any tests ("If there's only one person in a class who chooses to wear a veil, I think the teacher would be able to easily tell if they're the one actually taking an exam," she says) or with discrimination from fellow students. In fact, says Jukaku, the pressure may come from somewhere unexpected — their own families. "A lot of my friends who choose to cover their face, or even just their hair, go against their parents," she says. "Their parents are worried about a backlash against their daughters." Yet here in America, as demonstrated in the brief but negative response to MCPHS's policy, backlash can travel in many directions.

    Read: "Why Tony Blair Is Right About the Veil."

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    it's not even a religious garment, it's cultural. They can screech about religious persecution all they want.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    it's not even a religious garment, it's cultural. They can screech about religious persecution all they want.
    I compare it to gang symbols and clothing. I win no friends with the comparison, but we don't let kids wear their gang clothes in schools. Why should we let Muslims wear their blankets?

    Am I allowed to walk down the street wearing a T and shorts in a Muslim country? Or am I forced to "respect the culture"?

    They want to live in the West (because Islamic countries are uniformly cesspits), they have to accept some rules (and they are few.) If they want to annihilate their individuality under the threat that otherwise they will be raped, there are a vast number of countries they can live in that agrees with that, and more.
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    America lets them wear their veils because we don't like ugly people.. end of story.

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    Elite Member Beeyotch's Avatar
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    ^^That's nice and not ridiculous or xenophobic at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beeyotch View Post
    ^^That's nice and not ridiculous or xenophobic at all...

    it was meant to be ridiculous.... and I have no fear or hatred of foreign people since you don't know me I'll let you slide... Ok so I did have to look the word up but I wanted to know if I was being insulted or praised, you just never know.

    truth

    we don't get many people wearing veils here in the burbs of Atlanta, so I was at JoAnns (my favorite store don't cha know) and there was a lady (I guess) dressed in a total burka.. the only thing I saw were her eye balls. Yet her husband and kids were not wearing the black sack, they had on normal western wear. Now I ask you where is the fairness in that? Anyway the darn things are scary looking, you could hide a city under that thing but I was at JoAnns and couldn't see a reason to blow the place up. So does that make me a xeno-blah blah? I don't know but since we aren't doing to well with the Muslims.. war and all...

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    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    I have never seen anyone here in a burka. Not even close. A few nuns habit kind. I keep expecting those to burst into song, but no.
    Last edited by McJag; January 19th, 2010 at 12:58 PM.
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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I've seen a lot of women in their jet black robes and facemasks.. they look like ninjas. I always want to run up to them and say "honey, you're in Canada now. You're free to do as you please."

    Instead, i go "WHATAAAAAAAAA!" in my head and make karate chop actions
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member darksithbunny's Avatar
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    A few years ago, I was at the DMV and they tossed out these women who insisted on getting IDs with the veils on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darksithbunny View Post
    A few years ago, I was at the DMV and they tossed out these women who insisted on getting IDs with the veils on.
    well for the love....... whats the point? How can you ID someone who is under a veil? AND I bet they screamed discrimination too.. phfft

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    Quote Originally Posted by GaPeach View Post
    we don't get many people wearing veils here in the burbs of Atlanta, so I was at JoAnns (my favorite store don't cha know) and there was a lady (I guess) dressed in a total burka.. the only thing I saw were her eye balls. Yet her husband and kids were not wearing the black sack, they had on normal western wear. Now I ask you where is the fairness in that? Anyway the darn things are scary looking, you could hide a city under that thing but I was at JoAnns and couldn't see a reason to blow the place up. So does that make me a xeno-blah blah? I don't know but since we aren't doing to well with the Muslims.. war and all...
    You see more Muslim women in fabric stores because they can't just go into most stores and buy what they're looking for so a lot of them sew. Ankle length skirts, jackets/blouses with long sleeves etc. They're looking to make clothes that they want. The fact that your mind instantly went to trying to think of reasons people might bomb a fabric store does sound xenophobic.
    "If you are not outraged, then you are not paying attention," Heather Heyer's facebook quote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twitchy2.0 View Post
    You see more Muslim women in fabric stores because they can't just go into most stores and buy what they're looking for so a lot of them sew. Ankle length skirts, jackets/blouses with long sleeves etc. They're looking to make clothes that they want. The fact that your mind instantly went to trying to think of reasons people might bomb a fabric store does sound xenophobic.

    really? well I've only seen one in all my life and I go to JoAnns 3 times a week at least... .
    and twitchy I only admit what you would have thought had you been in my position.

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    Don't you dare presume what I would be thinking because I think no such thing.
    "If you are not outraged, then you are not paying attention," Heather Heyer's facebook quote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twitchy2.0 View Post
    Don't you dare presume what I would be thinking because I think no such thing.
    I don't come here to argue but to understand different opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    I have never seen anyone here in a burka. Not even close. A few nuns habit kind. I keep expecting those to burst into song, but no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I've seen a lot of women in their jet black robes and facemasks.. they look like ninjas. I always want to run up to them and say "honey, you're in Canada now. You're free to do as you please."

    Instead, i go "WHATAAAAAAAAA!" in my head and make karate chop actions
    As an objective observer, I think we watch too many movies.
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

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