Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 56

Thread: Should the Supreme Court allow a Christian cross in a war monument?

  1. #1
    Elite Member Honey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    59,935

    Default Should the Supreme Court allow a Christian cross in a war monument?


    This 75-year-old wooden cross, now covered with a tarp, was at the center of a heated debate in the U.S. Supreme Court today.
    The cross, which is located atop a rock in California’s Mojave National Preserve near the Nevada border, has honored fallen World War I soldiers since 1934 but came under fire a decade ago after park employee Frank Buono protested its potential 1st Amendment violation of establishment of religion.
    The land on which the cross sits was recently transferred from the national preserve to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, but the Supreme Court justices debated today whether that solves the issue. In the past, the park has turned down a request to display a Buddhist symbol. The Obama administration agreed with the VFW and urged the court to uphold the display of the cross while it is under private control.
    An excerpt from the article by David G. Savage:
    "This is a stand-alone cross," said Peter Eliasberg, the [American Civil Liberties Union in Southern California] lawyer. "The cross is the predominant symbol of Christianity," he said, and it should not be treated as though it is the single, favored religious symbol.
    Justice Antonin Scalia took sharp exception to that comment.
    The cross "is the most common symbol" to honor the war dead, he said, calling it an "outrageous conclusion" to say the cross is limited to honoring only soldiers who were Christians. By the end of the hour, it was not clear what issue the justices will decide. They could decide whether the transfer of the cross to the VFW solved the legal problem. Or they could go further back and decide whether it was constitutional to erect the cross on public land.
    So what are your thoughts? Is it being too politically correct if we disallow a private World War I monument with a Christian cross? Or does the cross' presence in the preserve wrongly discriminate against other religions by preventing their symbols, like a Buddhist one, from being represented as well?
    -- Kelsey Ramos
    Photo: This cross, now covered in tarp, atop a rock in California’s Mojave National Preserve has been a memorial to fallen World War I soldiers since 1934. Credit: Liberty Legal Institute / Associated Press

    Should the Supreme Court allow a Christian cross in a war monument? | Comments Blog | Los Angeles Times

  2. #2
    Elite Member january's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    7,255

    Default

    No, it needs to be taken down, its on government property. There are many brave men and women of all faiths or lack thereof who have died for this country. Its not fair to presume that everyone who died shared the same faith, which I think the presence of this cross does. I do not think thats an "outrageous conclusion", in fact, I think its the right one. How would Christians feel if Muslims were the predominant religion and we were buried under the symbol of the crescent moon? And just because it is the "most common symbol" to honor the dead doesn't make it necessarily correct. And usually when people are buried they choose their own religious marker - I don't think a memorial marker for everyone should always be a cross.

    Wait, I just reread and its NOT on government property anymore? And this private group refused to let the Buddhist symbol be seen? This got a bit murkier. Usually I think what happens on private property is no one else's business, but this is an odd case. Nonetheless, even if it is not on government property, its still a government memorial, no? In that case, the cross should come down, or they should add a memorial symbol for all those who died so everyone is represented.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  3. #3
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    3,200

    Default

    It's a memorial to people who have died. Cemeteries are full of crosses for that reason. It's ridiculous to cover it up.


  4. #4
    Elite Member january's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    7,255

    Default

    Look, I don't mind crosses in cemeteries AT ALL if its above a particular grave, which represents the religious belief system of that particular person, the same as I don't mind the star of David or the crescent moon. Thats why there are so many crosses at cemeteries, because the U.S. has been predominantly Christian. But I don't think the cross should be indicative of the whole cemetery, its almost a declaration that the whole cemetery is dedicated to Christ - and if people didn't believe that in life, then they shouldn't be buried underneath it in death. I hope I'm clear here.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  5. #5
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,359

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    It's a memorial to people who have died. Cemeteries are full of crosses for that reason. It's ridiculous to cover it up.


    notice a difference?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  6. #6
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    3,200

    Default

    YES, Grimm. Noticed the difference. So what's your point?? Did I say that cemeteries only contain crosses??


  7. #7
    Elite Member january's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    7,255

    Default

    Exactly Grimm, that was my point before. To make a cross at the front of a cemetery/memorial is to make a declaration that it is a "Christian" cemetery/memorial, and therefore its not right to make that declaration when other faiths are buried there. Its different when its individual versus the whole.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  8. #8
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    3,200

    Default

    It is land that is owned by the Veterans of Foreign Wars. They want the cross to stay. It is a way to honor those who died in battle. It goes beyond worrying about offending people of other faiths. The cross is overwhelmingly the symbol to honor the war dead in the US. We should be thinking about how the Veterans feel about hiding a symbol on their own land which gives them comfort.


  9. #9
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,359

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    YES, Grimm. Noticed the difference. So what's your point?? Did I say that cemeteries only contain crosses??
    My point is, it's one cross for a whole memorial on government land.. doesn't exactly take into account all the people of different faiths who died, now does it.

    a cross for a particular grave is fine.. using one for a whole group of people is not unless they're all confirmed christians
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  10. #10
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,359

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    It is land that is owned by the Veterans of Foreign Wars. They want the cross to stay. It is a way to honor those who died in battle. It goes beyond worrying about offending people of other faiths. The cross is overwhelmingly the symbol to honor the war dead in the US. We should be thinking about how the Veterans feel about a symbol on their own land which gives them comfort.
    so you explain that star of david how? That's a war cemetery.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #11
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    3,200

    Default

    It's not government land. It is private land and they want to put up a cross simply because it's the symbol of fallen soldiers in war.

    So, there is a war cemetery and somebody has put a Star of David. Good for them. But the war veterans feel dishonored when they covered that cross as it is (overwhelmingly) the symbol which honors their war dead.


  12. #12
    Bronze Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    140

    Default

    You find God/religion really quick when you are in a foxhole getting shot at and a cross is common symbol for soldiers graves, so yes they should leave it be and uncover it. Besides, the article says it is under "private control", it is not under control of the government.

  13. #13
    Elite Member january's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    7,255

    Default

    I don't believe the cross is the symbol for fallen soldiers, I think of it as a religious symbol. If anything, the American flag should be there instead of the cross.

    I'm sorry that the cross is seen as "comforting" for some veterans - but this is a memorial and its supposed to be about the dead soldiers. Unless it can be proven that they all were Christians, I think its a mistake to have a cross overlooking the whole memorial.

    Also, if this were all about "religious comfort" then they should have allowed the Buddhists to put their symbol their for their own comfort. But its not, obviously.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  14. #14
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,359

    Default

    THEIR religious comfort.. nobody else's.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  15. #15
    Elite Member january's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    7,255

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    THEIR religious comfort.. nobody else's.
    Thats the vibe I'm getting, unfortunately.

    Also, the "you find religion real quick when you're being shot at" argument...not that I'm inclined to say its absolutely false, but what religion? You always find Jesus? Could you find Buddha, Mohammad? Or is that not valid? The cross is a "common symbol" because at war cemeteries in the U.S. the majority of people are Christian, so the symbols over their own personal graves are often crosses. Its not however, a common symbol for everybody.

    I found out real quick when I was overseas how it felt to be a religious minority, so I have a lot of empathy here. I just hate that the cross HAS to be displayed for everyone - that would upset me if I wasn't a Christian. If you are a Christian, your faith should sustain you. You shouldn't have to put up a cross to prove it.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Supreme Court rejects challenge to 'don't ask, don't tell'
    By kingcap72 in forum U.S. Politics and Issues
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: June 8th, 2009, 07:42 PM
  2. How John McCain could tilt the Supreme Court
    By Fluffy in forum U.S. Politics and Issues
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: October 7th, 2008, 07:30 PM
  3. The Supreme Court confronts race
    By JamieElizabeth in forum U.S. Politics and Issues
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: December 8th, 2006, 05:25 PM
  4. Senators rap Supreme Court choice
    By DisruptiveHair in forum U.S. Politics and Issues
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 20th, 2005, 10:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •