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Thread: Israel throws down gauntlet on Iran getting a nuke

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    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Default Israel throws down gauntlet on Iran getting a nuke

    JERUSALEM – Israel hardened its insistence Monday that it would do anything it felt necessary to stop Iran from getting a nuclear bomb, just the ultimatum the United States hoped not to hear as it tried to nudge Iran to the bargaining table.
    U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates reassured Israel that the new Obama administration was not naive about Iran's intentions, and that Washington would press for new, tougher sanctions against the Iranians if they balk. He didn't say what those might include.
    Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak used a brief news conference with Gates to insist three times that Israel would not rule out any response — an implied warning that it would consider a pre-emptive strike to thwart Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.
    "We clearly believe that no option should be removed from the table," Barak said. "This is our policy. We mean it. We recommend to others to take the same position, but we cannot dictate it to anyone."
    The question of how to deal with Iran's rapid nuclear advancement has become a notable public difference between the new administrations in Jerusalem and Washington, despite overall close relations. Israel considers itself the prime target of any eventual Iranian bomb.
    Iran says it is merely trying to develop nuclear reactors for domestic power generation. Israeli leaders fear the U.S. prizes its outreach to Iran over its historic ties to Israel and appears resigned to the idea that Iran will soon be able to build a nuclear weapon.
    Obama says he has accepted no such thing. Still, the United States argues that an Israeli attack against Iran would upset the fragile security balance in the Middle East, perhaps triggering a new nuclear arms race and leaving everyone, including Israel and Iran, worse off.
    Gates emphasized areas of agreement with Israel, including that the offer of talks with Iran must not be open-ended.
    Later, in neighboring Jordan, Gates was blunt in describing what Iran might expect if it refuses the offer of international arms control talks this year, or walks away from Obama's wider offer of better relations with Washington.
    "If the engagement process is not successful, the United States is prepared to press for significant additional sanctions," Gates said. He added that the U.S. would try to abandon the current policy of gradual international pressure, where layers of generally mild sanctions have been added each time Iran has flouted international demands.
    "We would try to get international support for a much tougher position," Gates said.
    "Our hope remains that Iran would respond to the president's outstretched hand in a positive and constructive way, but we'll see."
    Gates' brief stop in Israel was part of a parade of top Washington officials visiting Israel this week, with Iran and the expansion of Jewish settlements on Arab land the main topics. In each case, the Obama administration is taking a harder line with Israel than the positions taken by President George W. Bush.
    Obama's special Mideast envoy, former Sen. George Mitchell, was the first U.S. official to arrive, largely to discuss U.S.-Israeli differences over the settlements. Gates will be followed Wednesday by National Security Adviser James Jones and his deputy, Mideast and Iran specialist Dennis Ross, both expected to press for Israeli cooperation on Iran. Gates met with Jordanian King Abdullah II in Amman after leaving Israel on Monday.
    Mitchell urged Israel to start "dealing with difficult issues like settlements." At the same time, he urged Arab nations to take "genuine steps" toward normalizing ties with Israel.
    The differences over Iran come on top of U.S.-Israeli disagreements over the Mideast peace process — particularly Washington's calls for a halt to Israeli settlement building. The Obama administration is having to press Israel on multiple fronts at once, complicating its diplomacy as it makes a major push to revive Arab-Israeli negotiations.
    All this comes at a time when Washington's policy of dialogue with Iran itself has hit an impasse because of that country's election turmoil.

    A more cooperative Iran is important for the Mideast peace drive. With its links to Hamas and Hezbollah militants, Iran is capable of heightening tensions in Israel and the Palestinian territories. At the same time, an Israeli strike on Iran would probably push Arab nations away from any peace gestures toward Israel, despite their own rivalries with Tehran.
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu "reiterated the seriousness (with) which Israel views Iran's nuclear ambitions and the need to utilize all available means to prevent Iran from achieving a nuclear weapons capability," Netanyahu's office said following his meeting with Gates.
    While the United States also reserves the right to use force if need be, the Obama administration is playing down that possibility while it tries to draw Iran into talks. Gates said Washington still hopes to have an initial answer in the fall about negotiations.
    "The timetable the president laid out still seems to be viable and does not significantly raise the risks to anybody," Gates said in Israel.
    Both Barak and Gates said time is short. Other officials have said Iran is perhaps one to three years away from being able to build a nuclear weapon.
    Barak, speaking in both English and Hebrew, gave only lukewarm endorsement to the negotiating strategy.
    "We are not in a situation in which we can tell the United States to hold, or not to hold discussions with Iran," Barak said. "But we repeatedly state our position in closed conversations, which is that a discussion like this should be limited in time, result-oriented, and able to decide if the Iranians are truly serious or not."
    Itamar Rabinovich, a former Israeli ambassador to the U.S., said Israel "isn't anxious to launch military action." "It doesn't want this, but Israel thinks more should be done and that diplomacy alone isn't enough. I think Israel and the U.S. are on the same page but on different sides of the paper," he said.
    Israel on Iran: Anything it takes to stop nukes
    A pre-emptive strike on Iran? Yeah, that Bush Doctrine worked so well for the U.S. in Iraq.

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    Israel might not want to piss off China and Russia.

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    Whatever. Fuck off back to your sandheap and blow yourselves to hell for all I care. Take everybody around you too.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Ironically, Iran does need domestic power generation. It exports oil, but apparently has few of its own refineries, especially for domestic production. So, it sells oil, and buys back the refined product.

    Anyway, a bunch of Iranians froze to death last winter (if I remember correctly) over an energy shortage.

    Did the article address whether Iran refused to have any inspections of its facilities by IEAA? Or are they claiming to be afraid of doing that because it would clue Israel in to where to bomb?

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    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    Ironically, Iran does need domestic power generation. It exports oil, but apparently has few of its own refineries, especially for domestic production. So, it sells oil, and buys back the refined product.

    Anyway, a bunch of Iranians froze to death last winter (if I remember correctly) over an energy shortage.

    Did the article address whether Iran refused to have any inspections of its facilities by IEAA? Or are they claiming to be afraid of doing that because it would clue Israel in to where to bomb?
    I think Israel is just focused on not allowing Iran to have any nuclear power, domestic or otherwise. But I think Israel keeps forgetting that they don't have the military might to take on the entire Middle East.

    And like Sasha mentioned Russia and China would probably take issue with Israel attacking Iran. Unless they think the U.S. will come running to the rescue, forgetting that we're already fighting two wars.

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I wonder what, exactly, Russia and China would do?

    Israel has at least 40 nuclear bombs, plus a submarine with harpoon missiles topped with nuclear warheads. Who knows where that crap would go flying if Russia and China decided to get involved? I'm betting they would stay on the sidelines rather than find out.

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    Israel is always claiming countries without the wherewithal are threatening to 'wipe Israel off the map'. Well, China and Russia could actually do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I wonder what, exactly, Russia and China would do?

    Israel has at least 40 nuclear bombs, plus a submarine with harpoon missiles topped with nuclear warheads. Who knows where that crap would go flying if Russia and China decided to get involved? I'm betting they would stay on the sidelines rather than find out.
    Regardless of the weapons Israel has, they can't rattle sabres if they can't effectively back it up. And if Israel could really make a strike at Iran, and handle the fallout, they would've done it already instead of just talking about it.

    It's the same thing with the U.S. & Iran. The U.S. has rattled sabres with Iran for years, but never done a major strike against them, because of the potential fallout from that move. And the U.S. has more weapons in it's arsenal & a bigger military than Israel does.

    And whatever Russia & China would do is up in the air, but they would play a role in the potential fallout from a strike against Iran. And it's a safe bet that Russia has far more weapons, especially nuclear, than Israel does, so they wouldn't be scared to jump in.

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    Israel will not do a damn thing until they are perfectly positive the US would back them up. If Obama has any sense at all he will not want to start a nuclear confrontation over Israel's hegemonic aggressions.

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    ^^Exactly. That's why Israel is whining about how Obama/U.S. prizes reaching out to Iran more than it's 'historic ties' to Israel.

    Israel isn't striking out at Iran, unless they know the U.S. fully-supports that move and will help protect them from any retaliation. And since the U.S. is taking a harder stance on the settlements Israel knows they don't have U.S. support for a strike against anybody.

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Regardless of the weapons Israel has, they can't rattle sabres if they can't effectively back it up. And if Israel could really make a strike at Iran, and handle the fallout, they would've done it already instead of just talking about it.

    It's the same thing with the U.S. & Iran. The U.S. has rattled sabres with Iran for years, but never done a major strike against them, because of the potential fallout from that move. And the U.S. has more weapons in it's arsenal & a bigger military than Israel does.

    And whatever Russia & China would do is up in the air, but they would play a role in the potential fallout from a strike against Iran. And it's a safe bet that Russia has far more weapons, especially nuclear, than Israel does, so they wouldn't be scared to jump in.
    I don't believe that Israel has the capability of making an effective tactical strike against Iran's nukes because Iran's uranium enrichment facilities are supposedly widely dispersed, and not just in the Natanz area. So, even with the help of the bunker-buster bombs that the United States has already given them, Israel would have to weigh the fact that 1) they wouldn't be able to entirely wipe out Iran's nuclear-enrichment capabilities, and 2) that a retaliatory strike from Iran wouldn't just focus on Israel, but also on Saudi refineries. And because of option 2, the U.S. is probably putting huge pressure on Israel to not do anything while diplomatic efforts are underway.

    That being said, if Israel feels an existential threat -- whether it is from Iran, China, or Russia, they have the firepower to change the world as we know it. They could make Iran's major urban areas disappear overnight. Would they do something so apocalyptic? Who knows? Didn't the Masada siege involve Israelis also?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I don't believe that Israel has the capability of making an effective tactical strike against Iran's nukes because Iran's uranium enrichment facilities are supposedly widely dispersed, and not just in the Natanz area. So, even with the help of the bunker-buster bombs that the United States has already given them, Israel would have to weigh the fact that 1) they wouldn't be able to entirely wipe out Iran's nuclear-enrichment capabilities, and 2) that a retaliatory strike from Iran wouldn't just focus on Israel, but also on Saudi refineries. And because of option 2, the U.S. is probably putting huge pressure on Israel to not do anything while diplomatic efforts are underway.

    That being said, if Israel feels an existential threat -- whether it is from Iran, China, or Russia, they have the firepower to change the world as we know it. They could make Iran's major urban areas disappear overnight. Would they do something so apocalyptic? Who knows? Didn't the Masada siege involve Israelis also?
    Any country that has nuclear weapons has the power to change the world as we know it.

    If Israel felt that a country like Russia or China was a threat to them they still wouldn't attack or even threaten to attack them. Because those countries could literally destroy Israel in one fell swoop. Israel couldn't do that with a country like Russia or China.

    And if Israel wiped out Iran's urban centers that would draw the attention of countries like Russia and China. And one of them may decide to strike out against Israel, fearing that Israel may attack them, too. And both countries could wipe out more than Israel's urban areas. So, if Israel strikes Iran they're going to get much more than they bargained for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    And if Israel wiped out Iran's urban centers that would draw the attention of countries like Russia and China. And one of them may decide to strike out against Israel, fearing that Israel may attack them, too.
    Why China or Russia will think that Israel will attack them? ? ? ? sorry thats make no sense.

    Plus Israel will not attack Iran until she will get the "green light" from Arabs countries not from USA, when it came to Iran USA-Israel and some (more then some) Arab countries have the same interests! !
    different motives but certainly the same interests.

    Israel is the only one who can say she will attack Iran (bc of public opinions, diplomatic reasons and ect..) but most counties know that Iran is not just Israel problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marie View Post
    Why China or Russia will think that Israel will attack them? ? ? ? sorry thats make no sense.

    Plus Israel will not attack Iran until she will get the "green light" from Arabs countries not from USA, when it came to Iran USA-Israel and some (more then some) Arab countries have the same interests! !
    different motives but certainly the same interests.

    Israel is the only one who can say she will attack Iran (bc of public opinions, diplomatic reasons and ect..) but most counties know that Iran is not just Israel problem.
    It makes sense in the terms that if one country does a pre-emptive strike against another country it's going to make some other countries question whether they'll attack them, too. That fear was raised in some Middle East countries after the U.S. invaded Iraq.

    And do you really think that the other Arab nations will EVER give Israel the greenlight to attack Iran or any other Arab country? That doesn't make sense, because it's never going to happen. Whatever issues the other Arab countries have with one another, they all share one thing in common. A mistrust and/or hate toward Israel.

    And if Israel didn't need backing/approval from the U.S. to strike Iran then they wouldn't broach the subject with the U.S. at all.

    And if Iran wasn't an Israeli problem, then why are they making noises about strikes against Iran? If you don't perceive a country to be a problem/threat to you then why talk about striking out at them to begin with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    It makes sense in the terms that if one country does a pre-emptive strike against another country it's going to make some other countries question whether they'll attack them, too. That fear was raised in some Middle East countries after the U.S. invaded Iraq.

    And do you really think that the other Arab nations will EVER give Israel the greenlight to attack Iran or any other Arab country? That doesn't make sense, because it's never going to happen. Whatever issues the other Arab countries have with one another, they all share one thing in common. A mistrust and/or hate toward Israel.

    And if Iran wasn't an Israeli problem, then why are they making noises about strikes against Iran? If you don't perceive a country to be a problem/threat to you then why talk about striking out at them to begin with?
    Sorry but there are no reasons to China or Russia to attack Israel and i see no reasons to them to even think Israel will attack them.

    As for the Arab countries "geenlight" YES if you think that Israel act at
    Syria nuke for example was someting that happem with not some other Arabs countries knowledge you dont know were you live.

    Plus i didnt say that Iran is not Israli problem i said not just an Israeli problem.

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