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Thread: New report: Bush was determined to torture, even if it didn't work

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Exclamation New report: Bush was determined to torture, even if it didn't work

    Last week, the Obama administration released the Bush administration's legal memos, which authorized torture. This week, we've got a new Senate report on the subject of torture. It's still somewhat sad and extremely disturbing that we're talking about the United States of America permitting torture. But, that's what George Bush did to our country. My initial take on the Senate report on torture is that it confrms the Bush crew was hellbent on torturing any suspected terrorist -- even if it wasn't legal and didn't work. From the Washington Post:


    Intelligence and military officials under the Bush administration began preparing to conduct harsh interrogations long before they were granted legal approval to use such methods -- and weeks before the CIA captured its first high-ranking terrorism suspect, Senate investigators have concluded.

    Previously secret memos and interviews show CIA and Pentagon officials exploring ways to break Taliban and al-Qaeda detainees in early 2002, up to eight months before Justice Department lawyers approved the use of waterboarding and nine other harsh methods, investigators found.

    The findings are contained in a Senate Armed Services Committee report scheduled for release today that also documents multiple warnings -- from legal and trained interrogation experts -- that the techniques could backfire and might violate U.S. and international law.

    One Army lieutenant colonel who reviewed the program warned in 2002 that coercion "usually decreases the reliability of the information because the person will say whatever he believes will stop the pain," according to the Senate report. A second official, briefed on plans to use aggressive techniques on detainees, was quoted the same year as asking: "Wouldn't that be illegal?"




    So, wouldn't work and was illegal. That should have thrown up a few red flags, but it didn't stop the torture program from moving forward.

    This report does indeed add momentum to the push for an investigation of what happened and how. This is about the reputation of the United States. We can't let torturers go unpunished:



    The new findings are expected to add further pressure on the White House to authorize an independent investigation of the Bush-era interrogation policies. President Obama for the first time yesterday refused to rule out the possibility of a probe to determine whether government lawyers acted illegally in approving interrogation practices. Obama said Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. should determine whether they broke the law.



    The government lawyers who broke the law would be a good start.

    One of those lawyers, Jay Bybee, is now sitting as a federal appeals judge in the Ninth Circuit. There are growing calls for his impeachment. Yesterday, Senator Feingold said there are "grouds for impeachment can be made." Rep. Jerry Nadler is on board. And, he chairs the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties.

    AMERICAblog News| A great nation deserves the truth
    i bet Obama stops this
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    Silver Member chattykathy's Avatar
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    But the question is, did the water boarding prevent another 9-11? If it did, it was worth it, even if the way they went about it was a bit barbaric.
    ""Somebody needs to talk to Alex Castellanos: he may not be doing sex right if he thinks an Obama speech is 'like sex'."~ Rush Limbaugh

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    Elite Member NicoleWasHere's Avatar
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    So you justify torture?

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chattykathy View Post
    But the question is, did the water boarding prevent another 9-11? If it did, it was worth it, even if the way they went about it was a bit barbaric.
    Then you've surrendered all your ideals and the terrorists have won anyway. You stand for nothing. America stands for nothing. All that ballyhoo about freedom and morality and being the light on the hill... all tossed out the window.

    Ideals are what separate us from terrorists and their horror. If you surrender them, you're no better than them.

    I figured this was basic.
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    Silver Member chattykathy's Avatar
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    It depends. If it prevents hundreds of people from dying horribly, well, I still don't like it, think it's horrible, but I would look the other way to save all those people. Besides, one of the things I heard about used as "torture" was putting a man with a bug phobia in a room with a caterpillar. Hardly torture right there.
    ""Somebody needs to talk to Alex Castellanos: he may not be doing sex right if he thinks an Obama speech is 'like sex'."~ Rush Limbaugh

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    Elite Member NicoleWasHere's Avatar
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    You'd be singing a totally different tune, if it were the middle easterners water boarding the American troops. Torture is torture, no matter who it's done to, who's doing it, it's still wrong, and the fact that anybody could justify it really shows how far down in hell we really are.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Torture is defined specifically in international law. What you think it is, is irrelevant.

    You'll look the other way and surrender the history and moral high ground of your nation and your people?

    Wow. Doesn't take much to make americans piss themselves in fear these days, does it. What a nation of cowards.

    Look at Europe. They've had to deal with terrorism for centuries. They buck up, stiff upper lip, and get on with their lives.
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    Silver Member chattykathy's Avatar
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    I do think its horrible, but the reason why it was done was to prevent another 9-11. Did it work? Is the threat of torture enough to make them talk? If it is, great, if not, break out the caterpillars. I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of national security, waterboarding sounds awful to do to anyone,but it's better than hundreds dying by a plane through a building because we couldn't get the information to prevent it. Both are barbaric. And no, I couldn't do it to anyone else, which is why I don't work for Homeland Security.
    ""Somebody needs to talk to Alex Castellanos: he may not be doing sex right if he thinks an Obama speech is 'like sex'."~ Rush Limbaugh

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    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    Expect torture and death when you're at war. It's a given.

    Is it right? No, but it's a part of life.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chattykathy View Post
    I do think its horrible, but the reason why it was done was to prevent another 9-11. Did it work? Is the threat of torture enough to make them talk? If it is, great, if not, break out the caterpillars.
    For one, i've never heard this caterpillar thing. Usually it's being hooked up to a car battery, scared shitless with barking and snapping dogs, simulated drowning, beatings, teeth knocked, being kept up for weeks at a time (which results in complete psychological destruction) and other brutalities.

    I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of national security, waterboarding sounds awful to do to anyone,but it's better than hundreds dying by a plane through a building because we couldn't get the information to prevent it. Both are barbaric. And no, I couldn't do it to anyone else, which is why I don't work for Homeland Security.
    Tacitly endorsing it is the same thing.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Silver Member chattykathy's Avatar
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    It is not the same thing at all! I've never heard of the car battery thing. Have heard about the beatings, hear mainly about waterboarding, and the bugs. Being kept up sucks, but many people do it for their jobs, and they still function. Talk to anyone who has worked back to back 12 shifts at a hospital...happens all the time.
    ""Somebody needs to talk to Alex Castellanos: he may not be doing sex right if he thinks an Obama speech is 'like sex'."~ Rush Limbaugh

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    No, being kept up for weeks results in complete mental breakdown, hallucinations, and insanity. You literally lose your mind.

    24 hours, 48 hours, not that big a deal. Weeks, and you lose your mind. Your body needs sleep and your brain needs it more.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
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    the torture that I've been hearing about is putting people in casket sized boxes and filling those boxes with bugs - not the same as being in a room with a caterpillar. Imagine being thrown into a coffin filled with fucking spiders and them closing the lid. People were kept up for over 11 days straight. Waterboarding. Beatings.
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    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    shit, I've done 11 days straight, literally. I had maybe 20 minutes of sleep, or should I say still/quiet time each night.

    It wasn't that bad.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    were you being hosed down, beaten, slapped around and various other things to keep you awake?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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