Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 94

Thread: Angelina Jolie Attached to Play Cleopatra; Should Brad Pitt Play Marc Antony?

  1. #61
    Elite Member bellini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    6,595

    Default

    lame arguement
    I think it is but not for the reasons you're stating. Most scholars don't believe that Cleopatra was black. When Ceaser took Cleopatra to Rome none of the historians of the time, such as Plutarch, make any mention of her being black when describing her. That is something that he surely would have commented on. Her ancestry has been hotly debated. While she probably wasn't pure Macedonian because her grandmother was a concubine who possibly was not Macedonian. But I don't believe that makes it conclusive that Cleopatra was a black African though. Here's a bit on that:

    The only possibility that she might not have been a full-blooded Macedonian Greek arises from the fact that we do not know the precise identity of one member of her family tree. We do not know who her grandmother was on her father's side. Her grandmother was the mistress (not the wife) of her grandfather, Ptolemy IX. Because nothing is known about this person, the assumption has always been that she was a Macedonian Greek, like the other members of Ptolemy's court. Like other Greeks, the Ptolemies were wary of foreigners. They kept themselves apart from the native population, with brothers usually marrying sisters, or uncles marrying nieces, or in one case a father marrying his daughter (Ptolemy IX and Cleopatra Berenice III). Because the Ptolemies seemed to prefer to marry among themselves, even incestuously, it has always been assumed that Cleopatra's grandmother was closely connected with the family. If she had been a foreigner, one of the Roman writers of the time would have mentioned it in their invectives against Cleopatra as an enemy of the Roman state. These writers were supporters of Octavian (later known as Augustus) who defeated Cleopatra's forces in the battle of Actium in 31 B.C.


  2. #62
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,372

    Default

    Uh.. wasn't cleo of the ptolemy line, from greece?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #63
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    13,468

    Default

    Was Cleopatra black?

    The Straight Dope: Was Cleopatra black?

    Dear Straight Dope:

    Current popular opinion says that Cleopatra was black. But wasn't she in fact Greek? Were there previous Cleopatras that were black? (or African, whatever, although since they were in Egypt they would be African no matter what their skin color).

    — H. W. Nix

    I'm not sure it's true that "current popular opinion" says this--although it's an opinion some people may hold. Alas, opinion is all it is.

    To quote Mary Lefkowitz, author of Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History (1996), the short answer to your question is: "There is no evidence for thinking so."

    In fact, she specifically addresses this question in the book, spending almost 20 pages on it. So if you want a more detailed answer, that's the place to go. Since we have a little less space here, I'll distill down some of what she said.

    Lefkowitz begins by noting that, until recently, it never even occurred to anybody to ask this question. The information we have identifies her as a Macedonian Greek. Her ancestors were Ptolemies, descended from one of Alexander's generals. Cleopatra was a name traditionally given to women in the royal family, so, as you indicated, there were in fact previous Cleopatras. The one in question here was Cleopatra VII, daughter of Ptolemy XII and his sister (ewww). Sticking with the tradition of keeping it in the family, she married two of her own brothers in succession (the first "died in suspicious circumstances, [and] she had the second murdered," which is definitely taking sibling rivalry to extremes).

    She was able to speak Egyptian (the first in her family to do so--her parents, er, aunt and uncle, er, whatever, must've been so proud!). She also did dress in the manner of Egyptians (no info on whether she walked like an Egyptian, though). The surviving coins of the day show her as "impressive rather than beautiful, Mediterranean in appearance, with straight hair and a hooked nose." Alas, coins weren't in color, so what hue her skin had we can't say.

    Lefkowitz does note that there is a slight possibility that Cleopatra might not have been a full-blooded Macedonian Greek, because we don't know the precise identity of her father's mother. Apparently, grandma was not the wife of gramps, but his mistress (maybe he wanted to taste the forbidden fruit of somebody outside his immediate family, like a cousin). The assumption has always been that grandma was another Macedonian Greek, because the Ptolemies were a bit xenophobic, and somebody would likely have written about a foreigner being that close to gramps (examples of such writings exist when it happened with others).

    Lefkowitz notes that most writers who have raised the question at hand here haven't been ancient historians. She says the first American writer to suggest that Cleopatra had a black ancestor was J.A. Rogers, in World's Great Men of Color. Unfortunately, Rogers somewhat muddled Cleopatra's family history, claiming her father was Ptolemy XIII (nope, Ptolemy XII) and her grandfather was Ptolemy XI (nope, Ptolemy IX). Then he claimed that Ptolemy XIII (who was actually Cleopatra's brother and husband and cousin and, oh, you get the idea) showed pronounced Negro traits--although this claim doesn't seem to have any actual support.

    Some of the evidence used to support the claim of Cleopatra's alleged African roots come from, of all places, Shakespeare. In Anthony and Cleopatra, Shakespeare called her "tawny." Rogers and other supporters claim this was a 17th-century way to describe mulattoes, and since Shakespeare obviously thought of her that way, she must have been.

    Um, OK. But a close look at the passage in question shows that really isn't what Shakespeare meant here; in fact, Shakespeare would have probably called her an "Ethiope" if he meant "black." And, frankly, if the best evidence we have is a word in a Shakespeare play, well, that ain't gonna cut it in history class.

    Another amusing piece of "evidence" comes from Rogers and others pointing to Ripley's Believe It Or Not. Why? Because Ripley, "who says he has proof of all his facts, calls Cleopatra 'fat and black.'" So, Rogers doesn't have to back up his claim because he says somebody else says he has the evidence. So there!

    Other authors have followed Rogers and made similar claims, but with evidence that has been just as poor. For example, John Henrik Clarke used a modern portrait of a black Cleopatra as evidence, and also refers to the Book of Acts, claiming she described herself there as "black"--Lefkowitz and author Frank Snowden point out that this is a bit odd since Cleopatra isn't even mentioned there!

    In general, the folks making this claim seem to be jumping through lots of illogical hoops. The main line of "reasoning" seems to be that because we don't know who her grandmother was, she must have been a black and it was covered up by white Europeans. Is it possible that her grandmother was black, and that she was therefore 1/4 black? Yes. Is it likely? No. Is it supported by any evidence? No. This looks like a UFO conspiracy--there is no evidence, so people in power must be suppressing that evidence. Those who are passing this off as Truth have apparently already made up their minds, and that's that.

  4. #64
    Hit By Ban Bus!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    support histiocytosis awareness
    Posts
    7,363

    Default

    bellini I read a book that says she was light skinned and wore wigs because her hair was light.. however I no longer have the book (passed it to my brother) and can't reference it.

    novice - And just because Hollywood is whitewashed it doesn't make it right. Get down off your Jolie-cross & get a grip.


    Jake Gyllenhaal Is the Prince of Persia | Pajiba - Scathing Reviews for Bitchy People

    I was talking about the media reporting Jake shouldn't have gotten the part because of his white skin.

    I just read my post again and I stand by my statement.. it is a lame argument

  5. #65
    Elite Member bellini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    6,595

    Default

    Maybe Jolie is right for the role:

    Most famous fellatrice in Ancient Egypt
    A fellatrice is a woman - often a prostitute - who specialises in the art of fellatio, i.e. exciting the male genitals by means of mouth, lips, and tongue. Cleopatra of Egypt has been represented as the "most famous free-love fellatrice of the ancient world." Cleopatra is said to have performed fellatio on a thousand men. Perhaps this is why the Greeks chose to call her Merichane (Gaper) - "she who gapes wide for ten thousand men- the wide-mouthed one; the ten-thousand mouthed woman." Cleopatra was also known as Cheilon (Thick-Lipped). It was said that she fellated a hundred Roman noblemen in one night. (A. Edwardes & R. E. L. Masters).
    I kid Jolie lovers, I kid.


  6. #66
    Hit By Ban Bus!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    support histiocytosis awareness
    Posts
    7,363

    Default

    ^^ did you watch the HBO special, Rome? Cleopatra was getting it on with just about anyone and stoned out of her mind.

    I had always read that Cleo used sex to get what she wanted.. not unlike Jolie who didn't use sex for political favors like Cleo but used her sex appeal to get sex

  7. #67
    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Cuntopia
    Posts
    42,972

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bellini View Post
    Maybe Jolie is right for the role:



    I kid Jolie lovers, I kid.
    well, now it makes sense!
    Kill him.
    Kill her.
    Kill It.
    Kill everything... that IS the solution!
    П(•_•)П
    twitchy molests my signature!

  8. #68
    Gold Member Jackie M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    793

    Default

    From what I've been reading it is pretty much settled that Angie will be Cleo, but Marc Antony and Ceasar are still not casted. Unless someone has heard something?

  9. #69
    Elite Member bychance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,294

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    Was Cleopatra black?

    The Straight Dope: Was Cleopatra black?

    Dear Straight Dope:

    Current popular opinion says that Cleopatra was black. But wasn't she in fact Greek? Were there previous Cleopatras that were black? (or African, whatever, although since they were in Egypt they would be African no matter what their skin color).

    — H. W. Nix

    I'm not sure it's true that "current popular opinion" says this--although it's an opinion some people may hold. Alas, opinion is all it is.

    To quote Mary Lefkowitz, author of Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History (1996), the short answer to your question is: "There is no evidence for thinking so."
    What a bullshit title NO ONE teaches "Afrocentric" studies in history. Most Americans don't even know about the Tulsa race riot on Black Wall Street, by far the worst race riot in American history. That said, I do not believe Cleopatra was of African decent. However, Nefertiti being portrayed as White is ridiculous. Its a little sad that the only time ancient Egyptians were portrayed as Black was in a 1990s Michael Jackson video.

  10. #70
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Acerbia
    Posts
    33,568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bychance View Post
    What a bullshit title NO ONE teaches "Afrocentric" studies in history.
    Why don't you read the book before criticizing the title? There are prominent college professors- like Martin Bernal, Molefi Asante- that teach from an afrocentric p.o.v., and write books on it as well. It's a debated issue at many universities.

    Lefkowitz's book was a response to books like George James'- which put forth untruths about the Greeks stealing certain ideas from the African cultures. It's interesting.
    Last edited by witchcurlgirl; September 20th, 2010 at 12:43 PM.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  11. #71
    Elite Member bychance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    5,294

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Why don't you read the book before criticizing the title? There are prominent college professors- like Martin Bernal, Molefi Asante- that teach from an afrocentric p.o.v., and write books on it as well. It's a debated issue at many universities.

    Lefkowitz's book was a response to books like George James'- which put forth untruths about the Greeks stealing certain ideas from the African cultures. It's interesting.
    A handful of professors teaching afrocentric history is extremely different than some sort of curriculum of teachers teaching it...

    The title is offputting.

  12. #72
    Bronze Member in_exile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3

    Default

    James Cameron Considering Directing Angelina Jolie's Cleopatra

    October 14, 2010
    Source: Deadline
    by Alex Billington



    In the summer we wrote about a project in the works called Cleopatra, based on Stacy Schiff's biography Cleopatra: A Life about the famous queen of Egypt. The adaptation was being developed by producer Scott Rudin (The Social Network, True Grit) "for and with Angelina Jolie," but was in the early development stages. Well, Deadline is now saying that Sony Pictures really wants James Cameron to direct the movie and they're "exploring this seriously, but it is not a certainty that it will happen." Never in a million years would I thought we'd hear Cameron's name being thrown around for a historic, biographical epic like this.

    Of course, it's way too early to even say that he's been offered the job, but Deadline says this is "tantalizingly possible." The other interesting detail is that Oscar winner Brian Helgeland (L.A. Confidential, A Knight's Tale, Mystic River, Green Zone, Robin Hood) is currently working on the script. I'm sure Sony really wants to get a team of talent like Cameron, Jolie and Helgeland together, but this seems like a huge pipe dream to me. I mean, Hollywood is going in the opposite direction with a lot of science fiction projects, not historical epics, and I can't see this gaining a lot of traction. Sure, it would be interesting, but I'd rather have Cameron stick to his guns with more epic sci-fi instead of something like this. Let another director tackle Cleopatra.

    Update: Deadline just added more details to their original post. Jolie is attached and anxious to make the movie, so she's definitely a lock. The adaptation will be in 3D, another selling point (for both Cameron and audiences). It will be PG-13 and has been described as "brilliant script deserving of epic treatment" all about "what the Romans took from Egypt." Sony's production head Amy Pascal wants to "own" the Jolie name (not my wording) and says that "[Jolie] was born to play this part" because it's the "greatest female heroine" that ever lived. Pascal even went so far as to call it her Gone with the Wind epic. Wow - she is going all out!

    James Cameron Considering Directing Angelina Jolie's Cleopatra « FirstShowing.net

  13. #73
    Elite Member BITTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    GUTTED
    Posts
    22,955

    Default

    I have no idea what color Cleopatra was, but I do think that some of these white historians react violently to the mere idea of her being black. I think Mary Lefkowitz is a bit of a racist myself. The cover of Not Out of Africa was offensive because it had a picture of a Roman/Greek bust with a "hip hop" hat on it. Hip-hop is about as African as Swedish meatballs. I wouldn't buy the book mainly because I was insulted by the cover.

    Good luck getting a cat to do anything let alone join in on your sexcapades. - Air Quotes

  14. #74
    Elite Member SuriCruise's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    3,295

    Default

    ^ True.

    And seriously, in 3D and with Jolie as Cleopatra??

  15. #75
    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9,840

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Novice View Post
    At least they didn't "black up" like Jolie did to play Mariane Pearl.

    BTW - what do you think Persians look like? I know a lot & they look like they're from the Southern Med, not Arab. Pbbtt!!!!!!

    And just because Hollywood is whitewashed it doesn't make it right. Get down off your Jolie-cross & get a grip.
    I've met several brown-haired, green-eyed Persians. I don't get the Jake Gyllenhaal thing at all.

    And Cleopatra probably wasn't black. What is it with the indignation for that? I object to Jolie because of her awful Olympias in Alexander (what was up with that accent!!!!) and general hamminess.

Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 22
    Last Post: June 13th, 2010, 07:29 PM
  2. Brad Pitt and Ed Norton to play Lewis and Clark?
    By SVZ in forum Gossip Archive
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: May 29th, 2006, 08:51 AM
  3. Brad Pitt to play gay?
    By buttmunch in forum Gossip Archive
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: March 6th, 2006, 05:28 PM
  4. Brad Pitt and Maddox play in the park [2/14/2006]
    By muchlove in forum Photo Archive
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: February 18th, 2006, 10:10 PM
  5. Angelina Jolie won't play eye-candy role
    By MaryJane in forum Gossip Archive
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: November 15th, 2005, 08:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •