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Thread: Lance Armstrong may lose all his medals for doping

  1. #46
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Here's the problem - they're all dirty:
    If the UCI confirms the move, it faces a potential headache of choosing new winners for the seven disputed tours, as a number of cyclists who finished behind the American have also been implicated in doping scandals.
    The first place guy cheated - okay, let's give it to the second place guy. Oh, wait, he cheated, too. Third? No, he cheated. And on, and on. A big mess

    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Hincapie is considered a reluctant witness. As far as I'm reading, he is a clean cyclist who has tried for years to stay away from the corrupt aspects of the sport.
    And him, too:
    60 Minutes claimed Hincapie had testified to a US federal investigation into doping that he and Armstrong had taken EPO together.
    I followed up on this and the best Hincapie can do is a non-denial denial. Sounds familiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Is that how a champion, a hero, a fighter, an innocent acts?
    Once again, not to defend Armstrong (he cheated), but this probably more how a guy acts when virtually every one else is cheating and he is being pursued as the golden prize. I have mixed feelings about it because it is becoming abundantly clear that anti-doping agencies will never be ahead of the power curve when it comes to sophisticated cheating. And you are going to see a lot of organizations rally around him or turn a blind eye because LiveStrong has raised about $500 Million for charity while maintaining a 63 out of 70 Charity Navigator rating.

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    Elite Member BITTER's Avatar
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    Hard to feel sorry for Lance.
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  3. #48
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BITTER View Post
    Hard to feel sorry for Lance.
    They should throw everybody out and start again with chain-smoking fat guys. They are the only one's you can trust at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    They should throw everybody out and start again with chain-smoking fat guys. They are the only one's you can trust at this point.
    Hey, I resemble that remark. Minus the ciggies.
    But now, how can he be trusted or respected if it's known that all this time he's been lying and covering up the fact of his doping? I wonder how things would have turned out had he been honest from the jump.
    Good luck getting a cat to do anything let alone join in on your sexcapades. - Air Quotes

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BITTER View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark. Minus the ciggies.
    But now, how can he be trusted or respected if it's known that all this time he's been lying and covering up the fact of his doping? I wonder how things would have turned out had he been honest from the jump.
    My guess is that there is "honest" and "bicycyling honest". Doping is just the cost of doing business in many sports. Doping is so pervasive and sophisticated that we now have a sizable community of people who just want to throw up their hands and say "so what?" It's sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    My guess is that there is "honest" and "bicycyling honest". Doping is just the cost of doing business in many sports. Doping is so pervasive and sophisticated that we now have a sizable community of people who just want to throw up their hands and say "so what?" It's sad.
    I think of magnificent athletes like Jesse Owens and Lou Gehrig who both made history without the benefit of chemicals, and it makes me sad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post

    Once again, not to defend Armstrong (he cheated), but this probably more how a guy acts when virtually every one else is cheating and he is being pursued as the golden prize. I have mixed feelings about it because it is becoming abundantly clear that anti-doping agencies will never be ahead of the power curve when it comes to sophisticated cheating.

    Yes, they will always be playing catch-up, which is how Lance got nailed. The testing got better.

    Maybe we should quit turning our athletes into national heroes?

    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    And you are going to see a lot of organizations rally around him or turn a blind eye because LiveStrong has raised about $500 Million for charity while maintaining a 63 out of 70 Charity Navigator rating.
    I quit trusting Charity Navigator's scores after viewing the Susan Komen page which is highly suspicious given the recent exposure of where they choose to donate their funds and how much their executives make. Komen has the same ranking as Armstrong's charity, and very little of their money goes to any research, treatment or testing. Putting the label "Awareness" on any charity (which is the main goal of both LiveStrong and Komen) is a red flag for giving friends and family cushy jobs and company cars at the expense of the public's good intentions.
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    My main problem with him is that he was a completely different racer before he got sick. He was not a multiple days event(like the Tour de France and the Tour of Spain etc) rider at all. He was a good one day event racer, which is an entirely different breed of racer than a multiple day event rider is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_is_for_Cookie View Post
    My main problem with him is that he was a completely different racer before he got sick. He was not a multiple days event(like the Tour de France and the Tour of Spain etc) rider at all. He was a good one day event racer, which is an entirely different breed of racer than a multiple day event rider is.
    I did not know this! Great info. So, he was sort of like a 800 meter runner suddenly becoming a marathoner. Interesting.
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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Yes, they will always be playing catch-up, which is how Lance got nailed. The testing got better.

    Maybe we should quit turning our athletes into national heroes?
    My kids aren't being taught to worship any athlete - that's for sure. However, I've always been very cynical.

    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    I quit trusting Charity Navigator's scores after viewing the Susan Komen page which is highly suspicious given the recent exposure of where they choose to donate their funds and how much their executives make. Komen has the same ranking as Armstrong's charity, and very little of their money goes to any research, treatment or testing. Putting the label "Awareness" on any charity (which is the main goal of both LiveStrong and Komen) is a red flag for giving friends and family cushy jobs and company cars at the expense of the public's good intentions.
    Charity Navigator was the organization I cited, but I also looked around and I didn't see any dirt on Armstrong's charity - including siphoning off funds for Armstrong or giving cushie jobs to relatives. People have been critical of the fact that they don't give a lot of their money to research, treatment, or testing, but there are a lot of highly regarded charities that operate the same way.

  11. #56
    Gold Member laynes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_is_for_Cookie View Post
    My main problem with him is that he was a completely different racer before he got sick. He was not a multiple days event(like the Tour de France and the Tour of Spain etc) rider at all. He was a good one day event racer, which is an entirely different breed of racer than a multiple day event rider is.
    This is true.. he actually started off as a Triathlete. However, many Cyclists race all types of races and many will switch their focus from one type to another. For instance, Bradley Wiggins, who won this year's TDF used to be a Track Cyclist. Cadel Evans who won last year, started off Mountain Biking. In reality, these are even bigger jumps to becoming a Tour rider than from being a Crit or a Classic's Rider.

    LA made sacrifices and trained hard.. he moved to Europe and he actually had money so that he could afford the best advantages. Maybe that included drugs, maybe it didn't.

    If all athletes were tested as much as cyclists, I wonder if the NFL could field an entire team?



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    Default A “Lance Armstrong Being A Dick” Story

    Lance Armstrong's renowned temperament should probably be remembered as more than incidental to his story. It's unlikely things would have played out the way they have if not for how much of a jerk he was, by nearly all accounts. USADA wouldn't have so doggedly investigated him. His former teammates wouldn't have dimed him out so willingly. More media members would have defended him against an Ahabian pursuit.

    His American success story, his comeback from cancer, his charity work—none of these are mutually exclusive to just not being a very nice person. Like Barry Bonds, Armstrong was the world's best at what he did, made no friends along the way, and when it came crumbling down there were more than a few people silently pumping their fists. None of it matters now, of course. But it's always fun to hear about another episode in the legend of Lance.

    This one is regarding a long-ago interaction with American former cyclist Jonathan Vaughters, who rode on Amstrong's Tour-winning Postal Service team in 1999, before jumping to a French team the following year.

    Vaughters was aware of Armstrong's doping, the entire USPS team's doping, and even partook himself. The French team, Credit Agricole, was supposed to be doing things differently. No drugs, no blood doping, just clean riding. In the 14th stage of the 2001 Tour de France, Vaughters suffered a wasp sting above his right eye.

    He was allergic, and the swelling was grotesque. The normal treatment, which would have put him back on the bike and been better for his safety, was a cortisone shot. The same steroidal anti-inflammatory your favorite baseball players take with impunity. But cortisone would have registered positive on UCI's "strict" drug testing. Trapped by the letter and not the spirit of the law, Vaughters planned to withdraw.
    The swelling did not recede and the following morning Vaughters stepped from the team bus in Pau looking like the Elephant Man. His Tour was effectively over, but as a gesture to highlight the absurdity of the doping laws, he had decided to line up for the start and climb off his bike as soon as the flag dropped.

    As he was making his way to the start line he crossed paths with the race leader, Lance Armstrong. Two years previously, during Armstrong's first Tour win in 1999, they had been team-mates at US Postal, but Vaughters had not enjoyed the experience. The win had been fuelled by doping and Vaughters had left at the end of the season and found a much saner working environment with the French team, Crédit Agricole.

    Armstrong did not disguise his contempt. "Poor Jonathan and his stupid little French team," he spat. "What the fuck are you like? If you had stayed with me, this would have been taken care of but now you are not going to finish the Tour de France because of a wasp sting."
    "Taken care of" is an interesting choice of words, considering the allegation that Armstrong flunked a drug test during the 2001 Tour de Suisse, just a month before the Tour de France, but was somehow able to make it go away. Armstrong "took care of it," rider Tyler Hamilton said.

    You don't win races by making friends, as Vaughters learned and Armstrong could have told him. (Armstrong would win that 2001 Tour de France, and the next four. Vaughters would retire from cycling in 2003, and now serves as manager for the Garmin-Sharp team and is a vocal anti-doping advocate.) With 86 percent of Tour de France winners since 1967 having been implicated in doping, perhaps you don't win races by being a naturally gifted athlete either.


    An All-Time Great "Lance Armstrong Being A Dick" Story
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    USADA Will Have To Reveal Its Evidence Against Lance Armstrong

    Sports Radio Interviews
    Every morning, the fine folks at Sports Radio Interviews sift through the a.m. drive-time chatter to bring you the best interviews with coaches, players, and personalities across the sports landscape. Today: USADA head Travis Tygart says the info will be released in the coming weeks.
    Travis Tygart joined The Dan Patrick Show to discuss why the decision was made now, what would have happened if Armstrong decided to fight back, if he thinks Armstrong was afraid of court, his respect for Armstrong, his response to Armstrong's claims that he's passed about 500 drug tests, how the cyclists cheated and the number of cyclists he believes were involved in doping.

    Why the decision now?
    "Well, the evidence that we've received over the last few months was just overwhelming, unfortunately, that Lance Armstrong and the other participants on the U.S. Postal Service pro cycling team participated in a very professionalized and sophisticated doping program all aimed to win. Really, under our rules and our obligation on behalf of clean athletes and all athletes at every level, who want to compete without having to use dangerous, performance-enhancing drugs, we had an obligation to initiate the process and allow the legal process to ensue. … Lance Armstrong chose not to contest that, so that's now on him."

    If he would have decided to fight this, what would you have done?
    "We, frankly, we would have welcomed that opportunity. It's every athlete's right within our system and we would have had an open legal process where every piece of evidence, bit by bit, piece by piece, would have been presented in open court to the arbitration process. He and his lawyers would have the opportunity to cross-examine it, to confront it, to argue that it wasn't reliable or didn't prove what we believed and are confident that it proved."

    Do you think Armstrong was afraid of getting in front of the court?
    "It's hard to say, but I think at the end of the day, yeah. The better move now for him is to walk away on these terms and hold onto a sound byte with no basis about an unfair process or a witch hunt or a personal vendetta and all these things that you've heard. Because I think it would've been much tougher had all that evidence, over a two-week, three-week period of time, under oath, been presented on the stand. We'll be providing a reasoned decision based on that evidence to the International Federation and the World Anti-Doping Agency, so I think in the weeks to come, that will be revealed in paper form."

    Do you respect Lance Armstrong?
    "I think there's a bad culture in the sport and we really saw the win-at-all-costs culture take over. I think he did what a lot of other athletes did at that time. A number of them, when we confronted them with all the evidence we saw, came forward and were truthful and sat down with us and said, ‘Yeah, here's everything that went on and here's how we did it and here's who was involved and here's who taught us to beat the test.'

    They helped and they felt bad about what they were put into and the decisions they were forced to make. … He chose to go an entirely different route and, unfortunately, this is the conclusion at this stage, at least, that results from it. I don't fault any athlete to succumbing or being tempted to the pressures."

    How do you respond to Lance saying he's passed close to 500 drug tests?
    "Look, we've asked to see the proof of that. I'm not sure that's accurate. At the end of the day, we know athletes, and Marion Jones made the same claim. There were the '99 Tour de France samples that were retested. There was the 2001 evidence that we have that there was [something] suspicious indicative of EPO use that didn't go forward. There was the '99 glucocorticosteroid and we have evidence of cover-up of that positive. And then we included the analytical data from '09 and '10 that, in our charge letter, clearly indicates manipulation of his blood at that time. That is corroborated by other evidence that we have."

    How did they beat the tests?
    "One was they would use plasma expanders. They would use saline expanders so they would have notice of the test or they would delay being tested and then they would use substances that would easily mask the things they were doing. They were also using things like blood transfusions … which, unfortunately, there's not a current test for. There's good indications that can be drawn from that data I just mentioned to you of the '09 and '10 blood data that we have and presented to him."

    Do you think most riders used?
    "At that time, I think, not unlike baseball in the late 90s and early 2000s, the culture of drug use overtook the rules. I think, like Senator Mitchell, we got handed a really bad, terrible set of facts, and we had an obligation to weed through those facts and appropriately and responsibly piece those facts together. Our number one objective, and this was told to every athlete that we spoke to, including Lance Armstrong, was to ensure that the doctors, the sport director that's still in the sport, are no longer allowed to continue to advising young athletes and grooming young athletes to do what we've seen this U.S. Postal Service team do."


    This post, written by Eric Schmoldt, appears courtesy of Sports Radio Interviews. For the complete highlights of the interview, as well as audio, click here.
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    Elite Member BITTER's Avatar
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    The actual use of steroids doesn't bug me - it's the extent to which he has lied and evaded the authorities through his legal maneuvering and bullying tactics with the media.
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    This is amazing: With 86 percent of Tour de France winners since 1967 having been implicated in doping, perhaps you don't win races by being a naturally gifted athlete either.
    Wow. it really is pretty much ALL of them!

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