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Thread: Question about abortion

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    I've been around special needs people (though obviously not the amount you have), but I think it's patronizing to bash a woman's decision to abort a foetus with such issues just because the disabled can lead fulfilling lives. It's not your call to make (except with your son, and kudos to your for raising him-I have nothing but respect for the people who undertake the massive task of caring for a disabled/non-neurotypical child).

    Not to mention that a lot of the fetal abnormalities that women chose to abort for are a lot more serious and antithetical to the notion of 'quality of life' than Down's. But again, if a woman choses to abort for Down's (or ANY OTHER REASON), who are you to judge her? Maybe some people can't deal with raising a special needs child. Maybe they have no support system or some way to make arrangements for proper care of the child after they die.
    And I believe that the failure and the answer is that society does not provide that mother with help.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    As for ghetto, regardless of the origin of the word, it's now connected to some very specific class and race stereotypes.
    Maybe in Greece. Where I live, it is used by people of diverse backgrounds and colors to talk about a type of lifestyle.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    Who the hell is having late-term abortions to chose the baby's gender? Straw man argument.
    That was not what I was saying. I didn't say I was against late term abortions to select gender (although that does happen in other parts of the world. It is a reason that Canada limits the right for people to know the gender when they get their regular pregnancy ultrasound. It does happen in some cultures that are very particular about the gender of their children.) I was saying I am against ALL abortions based on gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    As for your views being supported by a majority of Americans-irrelevant. Not because I'm European, but because "widely held belief=/=fact". At some point the vast majority of the world believed homosexuality is a mental illness.
    Yes, because those are morally the same type of viewpoints. People think it is barbaric, because it IS barbaric. Read up on the procedure and then read up on the options. It is not death with dignity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    Where did I say you were? I know plenty of pro-choice Christians and some Atheists who wouldn't have an abortion themselves.
    This was not just a response to you. It was a response to others as well. People who are pro-life are commonly bashed as being bible bashing fundies, straight out of Carrie.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    I haven't beaten any puppies today. And if this is sounding flip, it's because that, like most of the things you describe above, are basic human decency. We don't get cookies for them, and they're not relevant to the debate.
    This is not a comparison of me versus you. This is trying to clear up misconceptions that pro-life people are only concerned about the uterus of other women and not the decency of life for those in this world (and yes, that is a common misconception.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    It's not about having a right to one's belief, it's about seeking to restrict other's rights. And most anti-choicers I've encountered are not big on respecting the other side and valuing other opinions, so no, I don't particularly want to 'debate' it any more than I'd care to debate with someone who believes that, say, women should have never been allowed to enter the workplace (and hell, some of them might have very rationnal to them reasons for believing that). I don't hold to the belief that all opinions are equaly valid. Some are just archaic.
    I am pro-choice. I believe you have the right to choose to have sex and with whom, when you want it. You have the right to choose your birth control method or to have anal/oral/digital sex if you are fertile. I believe if you have a slip-up (or especially if you are raped) that the morning-after should be an option. I believe you should have informed consent before having an abortion. I also believe that peoplle who don't want kids should get themselved sterilized and do us all a favor. I am pro these choices and pro-life.

  2. #107
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    And I believe that the failure and the answer is that society does not provide that mother with help.
    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: some women do not want to raise a disabled child, no matter how much 'help' they may get. You don't get to make that choice for them


    Maybe in Greece. Where I live, it is used by people of diverse backgrounds and colors to talk about a type of lifestyle.
    Did you seriously just type that out with a straight face?

    We don't even have that word in Greek. But maybe some of the US members can clarify just how free of skeevy race/class implication 'ghetto' is.


    stuff white people do: use "ghetto" as an adjective



    That was not what I was saying. I didn't say I was against late term abortions to select gender (although that does happen in other parts of the world. It is a reason that Canada limits the right for people to know the gender when they get their regular pregnancy ultrasound. It does happen in some cultures that are very particular about the gender of their children.) I was saying I am against ALL abortions based on gender.



    Yes, because those are morally the same type of viewpoints. People think it is barbaric, because it IS barbaric. Read up on the procedure and then read up on the options. It is not death with dignity.
    I've read up on the procedure. I still value the woman's life and health more than the fetus'. And using barbaric multiple times isn't making it so, or changing my mind.




    I am pro-choice. I believe you have the right to choose to have sex and with whom, when you want it. You have the right to choose your birth control method or to have anal/oral/digital sex if you are fertile. I believe if you have a slip-up (or especially if you are raped) that the morning-after should be an option. I believe you should have informed consent before having an abortion. I also believe that peoplle who don't want kids should get themselved sterilized and do us all a favor. I am pro these choices and pro-life.
    Charming. I guess I'll go get my tubes tied now, you've convinced me!

    I especially like how you followed up a set of restrictive parameters on policing women's sexual behaviour by saying they are 'choices' (which technically are, the only problem being that they are yours).

    That word, you keep using it. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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  3. #108
    Elite Member DeadDwarf's Avatar
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    I don't know if this has been said, but the morning after pills (including PlanB pills) are usually only 70% to 80% effective and may be even less effective if you have already ovulated. So if you are raped or had a condom break, you can still end up pregnant even though you tried to prevent the pregnancy.

    I really think people need to worry about their own fucking vaginas and shut the fuck up. I own my vagina, not you.

  4. #109
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadDwarf View Post

    I really think people need to worry about their own fucking vaginas and shut the fuck up.
    Oh hush now, you know other people's vaginas are so much more interesting!

    (In other words, AMEN to what you said)
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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  5. #110
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Seriously.

    Mind your own vaginas, what other people do with theirs isn't your business.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  6. #111
    Elite Member DeadDwarf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    US laws and constitution are based on English common law, not what the Catholic church says or a pastor in a church.
    Along with the Code of Hammurabi (circa 1780 B.C.) and the Romans' Twelve Tables (circa 450 B.C.). Little history lesson!

    Code of Hammurabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Twelve Tables - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  7. #112
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadDwarf View Post
    Along with the Code of Hammurabi (circa 1780 B.C.) and the Romans' Twelve Tables (circa 450 B.C.). Little history lesson!

    Code of Hammurabi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Twelve Tables - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Actually, Roman law never stuck around in England. Definitely not much influence from Hammurabi either as English common law evolved out of whatever the Celts had and Anglo-Saxon law.

    common law -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

  8. #113
    Elite Member DeadDwarf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Actually, Roman law never stuck around in England. Definitely not much influence from Hammurabi either as English common law evolved out of whatever the Celts had and Anglo-Saxon law.

    common law -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

    No, I am talking about the origins of American law, not English Common Law. The majority of our laws' influence is from English Common Law; however, we have also been influenced by the Code of Hammurabi and Romans' Twelve Tables. You can see this influence especially in our criminal laws and our legal system.

    So yeah, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
    Last edited by DeadDwarf; June 28th, 2009 at 01:08 AM.

  9. #114
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Yes, we will not agree. American law is got its origins from English common law. I don't know that I would credit the Twelve Tables since it's really just a series of maxims. Writs (like habeaus corpus) and juries are important things in our criminal and civil justice system come from Anglo-Saxon law. And if we're going to go as far back as Babylon, why not give credit instead to the Egyptians' 42 Negative Confessions since it predates Hammurabi anyway.

  10. #115
    Elite Member DeadDwarf's Avatar
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    In American criminal law, retribution is associated with lex talionis (“eye for an eye”- term obviously used in Exodus). Hammurabi’s Code established this as a legal written code/law within the Babylonian society. His code, one of the first WRITTEN codes ever, also defined specific property crimes and punishments proportional to the crimes committed. He put laws in writing and displayed it for all to see for several main reasons- to establish that no one was above the laws (even the gods) and that everyone could see the laws, therefore, everyone had to be accountable for the laws that they broke (even if they couldn’t read the laws). The most important reason was that everyone could see they were written, which meant that they could not be questioned- there were the LAW. It’s funny that American lawmakers have him on the walls in the Supreme Court Building http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf …. and again in the chamber of the US House of Representatives, along with 23 other influential lawgivers: http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/lawgivers/hammurabi.cfm I guess he isn’t influential in American law though.

    The Romans’ Twelve Tables (Roman law) focused more on legal procedures in the courts (including WRITTEN laws against perjury, right to due process, etc.) than the definition of crime (like Hammurabi did). England may not have kept Roman law, but not only has American laws and court systems been influenced by them, nearly every other Western nation has as well. Americans have used Roman law in their legal terminology, states (including Louisiana, Florida and Texas) have used it for civil-law codes, Supreme Court rulings have used Roman law in court decisions, etc.

    You’re right though, there’s no way any of this influenced American law or its court systems because the only thing that has influenced us is the English Common Law. Apparently we haven’t made any changes in the past 200 years or looked at anything that wasn’t of English origin. Kudos to you as you know everything about American law. You can have the last word because I’m done now since I have been schooled and enlightened by the Fluffy the Master.
    Last edited by DeadDwarf; June 28th, 2009 at 06:10 AM.

  11. #116
    Elite Member Karistiona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    This is the first link I could find, but it's not a secret. I have read many scholarly books on the topic, too.
    She has many leather-bound books and her apartment smells of rich mahogany.

    At the end of the day, my choices are mine and nobody else's business. Same goes for each and every one of us. If Cate goes out and gets raging drunk tonight, gets pregnant with some deadbeat's baby and then decides to abort it, that's Cate's issue and not mine. Similarly as a married woman I obviously use a reliable form of birth control, but if it failed and I decided I didn't want the baby, that's my issue, and not Cate's. It's not fucking rocket science people! And really, Cate, bringing up the Nazis in an abortion thread. That's just asking for trouble.
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  12. #117
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadDwarf View Post
    In American criminal law, retribution is associated with lex talionis (“eye for an eye”- term obviously used in Exodus). Hammurabi’s Code established this as a legal written code/law within the Babylonian society. His code, one of the first WRITTEN codes ever, also defined specific property crimes and punishments proportional to the crimes committed. He put laws in writing and displayed it for all to see for several main reasons- to establish that no one was above the laws (even the gods) and that everyone could see the laws, therefore, everyone had to be accountable for the laws that they broke (even if they couldn’t read the laws). The most important reason was that everyone could see they were written, which meant that they could not be questioned- there were the LAW. It’s funny that American lawmakers have him on the walls in the Supreme Court Building http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf …. and again in the chamber of the US House of Representatives, along with 23 other influential lawgivers: http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/lawgivers/hammurabi.cfm I guess he isn’t influential in American law though.

    The Romans’ Twelve Tables (Roman law) focused more on legal procedures in the courts (including WRITTEN laws against perjury, right to due process, etc.) than the definition of crime (like Hammurabi did). England may not have kept Roman law, but not only has American laws and court systems been influenced by them, nearly every other Western nation has as well. Americans have used Roman law in their legal terminology, states (including Louisiana, Florida and Texas) have used it for civil-law codes, Supreme Court rulings have used Roman law in court decisions, etc.

    You’re right though, there’s no way any of this influenced American law or its court systems because the only thing that has influenced us is the English Common Law. Apparently we haven’t made any changes in the past 200 years or looked at anything that wasn’t of English origin. Kudos to you as you know everything about American law. You can have the last word because I’m done now since I have been schooled and enlightened by the Fluffy the Master.
    Good grief. What is your problem? Did I shit on your parade or something? All I did was post what I thought was pertinent information. You did the same. Is that against board rules now?

  13. #118
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    I love how people just act like you can go to a drive thru gynecologist's office and order that tubal any time you want it. They obviously have no idea how challenging it is for an unchilded woman to find a doctor who isn't biased against permanent sterilization for women under 45 who've never had kids.
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  14. #119
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    Tubals can also have life-long side effects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    I love how people just act like you can go to a drive thru gynecologist's office and order that tubal any time you want it. They obviously have no idea how challenging it is for an unchilded woman to find a doctor who isn't biased against permanent sterilization for women under 45 who've never had kids.
    If it were men showing up there would be drive through abortions and vasectomies (a la MacDonalds) where you can order pizza, wings and beer and watch the playoffs of whatever sport while you had the procedure done, no doubt fully funded by all the male republicans in the Senate.

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