Page 7 of 16 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 235

Thread: Question about abortion

  1. #91
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    You can't legislate morality.
    I believe our laws are built on morality. Our constitution is built on morality. That said, just because we don't legislate it doesn't make it right.

  2. #92
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    I believe our laws are built on morality. Our constitution is built on morality. That said, just because we don't legislate it doesn't make it right.
    US laws and constitution are based on English common law, not what the Catholic church says or a pastor in a church.

  3. #93
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    A severe birtrh defect IMO is one that would incapacitate a person mentally or physically to a degree that it would prevent that person from being able to lead a normal (school, job, etc) self sufficient life. Dont forget that many of these children would born to older mothers. Who is going to take care of a 30 year old downs syndrome if the parent dies? Is it reasonable to expect the parent, in their older years to be perpetually caring for an incapacitated grown offspring during the parent's 'retirement years'? Who is going to pay for all of that? My BIL pays $8,000 month for his wife's severly down's brother to live in an appropriate assisted living community. Luckily for them, he was a very sucessful venture capitalist before the crash. Most ot the rest of the world doesn't have someone in that position to pick up the bill.
    That's pretty sick reasoning on who should live or die. There are people everywhere who aren't productive- look at all of the ghetto neighborhoods in the country. Have you ever spent a day at a Special Olympic's competition? Most of those people are definitely not self-sufficient. Who are we to judge whether those people should die? And currently, if people cannot afford the care for someone, the state DOES pay for it. In other societies, the family takes care of them (like we used to take care of our elderly, too, before it became the custom to shuttle them off to institutions for old people.)

  4. #94
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    That's pretty sick reasoning on who should live or die. There are people everywhere who aren't productive- look at all of the ghetto neighborhoods in the country. Have you ever spent a day at a Special Olympic's competition? Most of those people are definitely not self-sufficient. Who are we to judge whether those people should die? And currently, if people cannot afford the care for someone, the state DOES pay for it. In other societies, the family takes care of them (like we used to take care of our elderly, too, before it became the custom to shuttle them off to institutions for old people.)
    No it's not. Women have been getting rid of unwanted pregnancies for centuries for a variety of reasons. Getting rid of unwanted pregnancies didn't start after Roe v. Wade was passed.

  5. #95
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    US laws and constitution are based on English common law, not what the Catholic church says or a pastor in a church.
    Yes, much of that was based on the Magna Carta, or at least the Magna Carta pulled a lot of separate law together. Laws are based on right and wrong. There are some things most societies find right and wrong, moral or immoral, regardless of whether they are Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Humanist, Atheist, or Agnostic. We all think it is wrong to steal from others (although there are deviations such as indigineous tribes that freely take from each other, because that is their culture), whether that is law or not, or to kill a (wo)man for no reason. The English laws didn't come from nowhere. Now, there are areas where we don't legislate anymore, such as adultery, that most would admit were morally wrong, even if we don't always abide by that.

    I was firmly in the agnostic camp when I started to have pro-life leanings, and they were not based on the Bible or what a priest said in a Sunday homily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    No it's not. Women have been getting rid of unwanted pregnancies for centuries for a variety of reasons. Getting rid of unwanted pregnancies didn't start after Roe v. Wade was passed.
    Your argument was for the termination of pregnancies for people who would be non-contributing members of society. I have a great video for you. You might agree with it. It details the costs these type of people have on society:

    NAZI PROPAGANDA FILM ERB KRANK
    Last edited by Tati; June 26th, 2009 at 03:30 PM.

  6. #96
    Elite Member lurkur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    5,370

    Default

    If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. Problem solved.

  7. #97
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    Your argument was for the termination of pregnancies for people who would be non-contributing members of society. I have a great video for you. You might agree with it. It details the costs these type of people have on society:

    NAZI PROPAGANDA FILM ERB KRANK
    Oh please... Equating those who want abortions out of their own choosing versus Nazis who killed people who were living is not even the same thing.

  8. #98
    czb
    czb is online now
    Elite Member czb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    left coast
    Posts
    13,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    Abortion/Crime: Where Do Ideas Come From? - Freakonomics Blog - NYTimes.com

    The Negro Project and Margaret Sanger

    BlackGenocide.org | L.E.A.R.N. Northeast (warning a few graphic pictures- I am posting for the info.)

    King niece angry at Tiller-MLK comparison - Washington Times (Mentions the CDC statistic that black abortion percent twice as high as the live birth percentage of all births.)

    Research Margaret Sanger and eugenics or abortion and eugenics. I know that the Planned Parenthood in my suburban area does not provide abortions. The one in the urban, high crime area does.

    The eugenics movement was linked to a similar movement in Nazi Germany and forced abortions and sterilization were one way the Nazis got rid of undesirables (the disabled, multi-racial, Gypsies, and Jews.) This is an interesting book on the connection:

    The Nazi connection : eugenics, American racism, and German national socialism

    I don't support it, but at some point after being called a crazy Fundie extremist or a potential violent terrorist, you just hafta throw up your hands and say, "Whatever."
    lolijume, is that you??

  9. #99
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8,899

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    That's pretty sick reasoning on who should live or die. There are people everywhere who aren't productive- look at all of the ghetto neighborhoods in the country. Have you ever spent a day at a Special Olympic's competition? Most of those people are definitely not self-sufficient. Who are we to judge whether those people should die? And currently, if people cannot afford the care for someone, the state DOES pay for it. In other societies, the family takes care of them (like we used to take care of our elderly, too, before it became the custom to shuttle them off to institutions for old people.)
    Wow, racism, classicism AND ableism in one post. It takes a special kind of person to achieve that level of bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by czb View Post
    lolijume, is that you??
    Ah, now it makes sense!
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

    "The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance." -Benjamin Franklin

  10. #100
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    Wow, racism, classicism AND ableism in one post. It takes a special kind of person to achieve that level of bullshit.

  11. #101
    Elite Member ConstanceSpry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    7,981

    Default

    "Responsible parenthood involves decades devoted to the child's proper nurture. To sentence a woman to bear a child against her will is an unspeakable violation of her rights: her right to liberty (to the functions of her body), her right to the pursuit of happiness, and, sometimes, her right to life itself, even as a serf. Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the actual to the potential, of a real human being to a piece of protoplasm, which has no life in the human sense of the term. It is sheer perversion of language for people who demand this sacrifice to call themselves 'right-to-lifers.' "

    Leonard Peikoff

  12. #102
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    5,600

    Default

    My favorite part:
    sacrifice of the actual to the potential
    Amen!

  13. #103
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    619

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    Wow, racism, classicism AND ableism in one post. It takes a special kind of person to achieve that level of bullshit.
    So, because I argue AGAINST the termination of babies who have Down Syndrome or other disabilities, I suffer from ABLEISM? That is fucking classic. I was using Scooter's definition of what constitutes a normal self-sufficient life and arguing by that standard that most of the people at Special Olympics wouldn't qualify. Have you ever spent time at Special Olympics or with people with a different set of abilities or do you just sit on your happy fucking perch and spew "isms" at people? I have spent many years with people of different abilities, including raising a son with them, and I am very aware that we all are able to contribute different things in life, and we should be valued for being human beings and not whether we can contribute financially to the world.

    And RACISM and CLASSISM? Again, see above. Yes, maybe by classic definition, a ghetto is a place that was established for minorities by outside groups (such as Jewish ghettos in Europe). Today, we generally mean an impoverished urban area, where there is high poverty, and more of than not, a high percentage of people living on social services. Again, I was referring back to Scooter's definition. In earlier posts, I pointed out that blacks suffer from higher abortion rates than whites, and I think that's a problem. So, apparently, THAT makes me racist? So, I should expand on that.. trophy wives or husbands are also apparently not contributors to society because they can't support themselves. So, maybe KFed should have been aborted.... (Bad example).

    My thoughts, without twisting:

    I think abortion is wrong but there are circumstances where it is not (the uterus example). There may or may not be social consequences (good or bad) to abortion. I don't necessarily think that laws should change for the first trimester, although I believe in parental notification, the same as if my child had any other surgical procedure with inherent risks (and there are risks, as it is a surgical procedure.) I don't judge those who have had abortions, because I was not in their shoes at the time. I believe in sex, birth control, and the prevention of disease. I believe in fertility awareness. Women should know about their cycles and fertility awareness. I believe in informed consent (on risks, fetal development, etc) before an abortion.

    I think late term abortions are barbaric. I don't believe in aborting children with disabilities, because they are the wrong sex for the parents, or because they might be gay (assuming a biological marker could be found and some extremists would abort their children.) My thoughts are not extremist, they are supported by the vast majority of Americans.

    I am not some ignorant, uneducated bible bashing hick. My thoughts were formed from a very agnostic place. I was not brainwashed by any preacher or priest or by my parents. I have not lived a sheltered life, and I have been exposed to many different viewpoints and opinions. I believe that life has value. I dislike hateful people. I don't like hypocrites who are believers in freedom of speech, unless that speech is contrary to their beliefs. I believe that love prevails over hate, in one way or another.

    I don't protest abortion providers or harrass women getting them (I was the person who picked my best friend up after hers and took care of her). Socially, I don't shove my views down the throats of others. I have donated/given a lot to people who are pregnant unexpectedly (even if I do not know them), because I think they need it more than the couple who has planned and prepared and already has a nursery set-up by the time they start peeing on a stick on checking for ovulation. Oh, yes, and I give food to those who need it (is that classism, too, though?)

    There are many people who are pro-life in this country, and they are varied by class, religion, race, gender, and reasons. If you want to have an intelligent dialogue with them, maybe you should stop pre-judging them and accept that they have a right to their belief, too, and that some of their opinions might have value.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/us...s/18obama.html

    PS- I recommend reading up on Leonard Peikoff, because you might not agree on everything else he says.
    Last edited by Cate; June 27th, 2009 at 03:27 PM. Reason: added a P.S.

  14. #104
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Greece
    Posts
    8,899

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post
    So, because I argue AGAINST the termination of babies who have Down Syndrome or other disabilities, I suffer from ABLEISM? That is fucking classic. I was using Scooter's definition of what constitutes a normal self-sufficient life and arguing by that standard that most of the people at Special Olympics wouldn't qualify. Have you ever spent time at Special Olympics or with people with a different set of abilities or do you just sit on your happy fucking perch and spew "isms" at people? I have spent many years with people of different abilities, including raising a son with them, and I am very aware that we all are able to contribute different things in life, and we should be valued for being human beings and not whether we can contribute financially to the world.

    And RACISM and CLASSISM? Again, see above. Yes, maybe by classic definition, a ghetto is a place that was established for minorities by outside groups (such as Jewish ghettos in Europe). Today, we generally mean an impoverished urban area, where there is high poverty, and more of than not, a high percentage of people living on social services. Again, I was referring back to Scooter's definition. In earlier posts, I pointed out that blacks suffer from higher abortion rates than whites, and I think that's a problem. So, apparently, THAT makes me racist? So, I should expand on that.. trophy wives or husbands are also apparently not contributors to society because they can't support themselves. So, maybe KFed should have been aborted.... (Bad example).
    I've been around special needs people (though obviously not the amount you have), but I think it's patronizing to bash a woman's decision to abort a foetus with such issues just because the disabled can lead fulfilling lives. It's not your call to make (except with your son, and kudos to your for raising him-I have nothing but respect for the people who undertake the massive task of caring for a disabled/non-neurotypical child).

    Not to mention that a lot of the fetal abnormalities that women chose to abort for are a lot more serious and antithetical to the notion of 'quality of life' than Down's. But again, if a woman choses to abort for Down's (or ANY OTHER REASON), who are you to judge her? Maybe some people can't deal with raising a special needs child. Maybe they have no support system or some way to make arrangements for proper care of the child after they die.

    As for ghetto, regardless of the origin of the word, it's now connected to some very specific class and race stereotypes.

    I'm aware that there's a disparity between abortion rates of whites and minorities. That might have something to do with who the anti-choice movement targets or for that matter, the adoptability of white vs babies of colour. Yes, the disparity is skeevy, but I certainly don't think the solution is encouraging women and girls of ANY colour to have babies they're not financially/emotionally ready for.

    My thoughts, without twisting:

    I think abortion is wrong but there are circumstances where it is not (the uterus example). There may or may not be social consequences (good or bad) to abortion. I don't necessarily think that laws should change for the first trimester, although I believe in parental notification, the same as if my child had any other surgical procedure with inherent risks (and there are risks, as it is a surgical procedure.) I don't judge those who have had abortions, because I was not in their shoes at the time. I believe in sex, birth control, and the prevention of disease. I believe in fertility awareness. Women should know about their cycles and fertility awareness. I believe in informed consent (on risks, fetal development, etc) before an abortion.

    I think late term abortions are barbaric. I don't believe in aborting children with disabilities, because they are the wrong sex for the parents, or because they might be gay (assuming a biological marker could be found and some extremists would abort their children.) My thoughts are not extremist, they are supported by the vast majority of Americans.
    Who the hell is having late-term abortions to chose the baby's gender? Straw man argument.

    Every single argument I've seen against late-term abortion makes it sound like it's widespread, undertaken lightly or easy to obtain, when it couldn't be further for the truth:

    http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2...you-can-help-0

    As for your views being supported by a majority of Americans-irrelevant. Not because I'm European, but because "widely held belief=/=fact". At some point the vast majority of the world believed homosexuality is a mental illness.

    I am not some ignorant, uneducated bible bashing hick. My thoughts were formed from a very agnostic place. I was not brainwashed by any preacher or priest or by my parents. I have not lived a sheltered life, and I have been exposed to many different viewpoints and opinions. I believe that life has value. I dislike hateful people. I don't like hypocrites who are believers in freedom of speech, unless that speech is contrary to their beliefs. I believe that love prevails over hate, in one way or another.
    Where did I say you were? I know plenty of pro-choice Christians and some Atheists who wouldn't have an abortion themselves.

    And who's impugning your freedom of speech? Did the government come to take away your computer? You and everybody else is free to say whatever the hell you want, just as people are free to respond accordingly.

    I don't protest abortion providers or harrass women getting them (I was the person who picked my best friend up after hers and took care of her). Socially, I don't shove my views down the throats of others. I have donated/given a lot to people who are pregnant unexpectedly (even if I do not know them), because I think they need it more than the couple who has planned and prepared and already has a nursery set-up by the time they start peeing on a stick on checking for ovulation. Oh, yes, and I give food to those who need it (is that classism, too, though?)
    I haven't beaten any puppies today. And if this is sounding flip, it's because that, like most of the things you describe above, are basic human decency. We don't get cookies for them, and they're not relevant to the debate.

    And no, giving food to those in need is not classicism. However charity doesn't preclude clacissist views, much like that one 'black friend' doesn't preclude racist views.

    There are many people who are pro-life in this country, and they are varied by class, religion, race, gender, and reasons. If you want to have an intelligent dialogue with them, maybe you should stop pre-judging them and accept that they have a right to their belief, too, and that some of their opinions might have value.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/us...s/18obama.html

    PS- I recommend reading up on Leonard Peikoff, because you might not agree on everything else he says.
    It's not about having a right to one's belief, it's about seeking to restrict other's rights. And most anti-choicers I've encountered are not big on respecting the other side and valuing other opinions, so no, I don't particularly want to 'debate' it any more than I'd care to debate with someone who believes that, say, women should have never been allowed to enter the workplace (and hell, some of them might have very rationnal to them reasons for believing that). I don't hold to the belief that all opinions are equaly valid. Some are just archaic.
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

    "The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance." -Benjamin Franklin

  15. #105
    Elite Member ConstanceSpry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    7,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cate View Post

    PS- I recommend reading up on Leonard Peikoff, because you might not agree on everything else he says.
    I might not agree with all of of his views, but I certainly, 100%, agree with the one I quoted.
    I do respect other opinions, but not when they involve forcing women to incubate a fetus they do not want. It is HER body, and it belongs TO HER ONLY. NOT to the fetus, and NOT to anti-abortionists.

Page 7 of 16 FirstFirst ... 34567891011 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 9
    Last Post: June 30th, 2008, 07:12 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: March 17th, 2006, 01:01 PM
  3. Lefties skewer neocon talk radio jock with logical abortion question
    By Grimmlok in forum U.S. Politics and Issues
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: March 8th, 2006, 11:14 AM
  4. Abortion.
    By buttmunch in forum Politics and Issues
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: November 15th, 2005, 08:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •