Netherlands To Ban the Veil

**Sarzy** · January 31st, 2012, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

For me, it has nothing to do with 9/11 or changes in society. A burqa is an insult to every woman. I don't want to see them, period.

Agreed.

**sputnik** · January 31st, 2012, 08:55 AM

i think they're right to ban it. yes, i know that the law stems from the far right in holland who are a dangerous bunch and who totally hate muslims, but whatever their motivation, the result is still positive: sending the message that this kind of oppression will not be tolerated in modern western societies.

i've had this debate over and over with friends, and usually it's the brits and americans who can't understand why most europeans seem to agree with it, even the lefties. i guess they put a lot more emphasis on symbolic individual rights, without stopping to think that while they're getting riled up about a headscarf, their bigger, more important rights are being eroded every single day by things like the patriot act and other laws that make it legal for their governments to pretty much hold anyone indefinitely without a trial, or even charges.
and yet they're baffled by laws such as mandatory ID cards in europe, or the recent wave of burqa bans...

at the same time, i totally agree with people who oppose these laws and who say they're motivated by racism and anti-muslim sentiment. this is undeniable. but i think the important thing is the result.

another thing to consider is that europe for centuries had laws banning face coverings. the only exception was carnival. the result was that more murders were committed in venice during carnival than during the rest of the year, because face coverings do give you anonymity that lets you get away with things you couldn't do if people could see your face.
so yeah, the security concerns are valid as well.
countries had to pass laws making it mandatory for women to remove their face coverings in ID cards, because a lot of them wanted to have their passport pictures taken with their burqas on...

**Chilly Willy** · January 31st, 2012, 09:04 AM

In this particular case, the sentiment is anti-muslim and xenophobic, because the government in question is rightwinged, as Sput says. There is no denying that. It makes many Dutch people uneasy, because it's a minority government. However, the banning of the burqa is something a lot of people can agree on, because it's a symbol for the undermining of the liberal Western society in general.

**McJag** · January 31st, 2012, 10:36 AM

Nothing would stop an enterprising bandit from ordering a burka on the internet & robbing banks. That hasn't happened here yet, but one guy finally got caught wearing a thousands-of-dollars facial mask, from Hollywood.
I see women here wearing head covering scarves, making sure they attract far more stares. I have trouble figuring out the modesty part of that.
Part of me hates to see women subjected to that, but what if it is really her own idea?
Then I think, might be nice on a bad hair day. Or windy weather.

**Deutsche** · January 31st, 2012, 01:16 PM

Most human beings from Europe would be ashamed if our women have to wear a veil or burqa. It's simple a lack of respect towards the women .
Sure, religious liberty is guaranteed here but that doesn't mean that we have to like religion. As long as some Muslims don't deal with each countries mentality and with the Age of Enlightenment that happened in Europe some hundreds years ago, some Muslims will always face emphatic refusal - for a reason. We Europeans had a lot of fights about the way of life and how we would like to live here.

**greysfang** · January 31st, 2012, 01:19 PM

I think most of us can agree that its the right thing to do, even though the motivation behind the law may be wrong.

**dallison** · February 7th, 2012, 12:46 AM

Are men allowed to wear baseball caps in stores?

**electrocuted_sheep** · February 7th, 2012, 02:04 AM

I think a lot of people forget some women choose to wear it, to feel closer to God, or whatever their reason is, even if it's just a small amount of women.

I am pro-ban-the-burqa but I think the opposing side do present valid arguments, which we should take into serious consideration.

**faithanne** · February 7th, 2012, 02:14 AM

I don't see how we can reconcile the principles of democracy and freedom with taking away a woman's choice to wear what makes her comfortable. Even if we don't like the reason (we assume) they're wearing it, it shouldn't take away their right to wear it. Just as I have the right to tell anyone (man or woman) who tries to make me wear one to stick it up their arse. That's democracy.

**Kittylady** · February 7th, 2012, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by dallison

Are men allowed to wear baseball caps in stores?

Some pubs and shops where I live will ask you to remove any peaked hat when on the premises, whether it is a baseball cap or an old man tweed hat. This also applies to hoodies as well. I've worn hoodies and crash helmets (both full face and open) and the like for years and it's second nature to me to drop the hood/take off the lid when entering a store or petrol station.

**Jezi** · February 7th, 2012, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by dallison

Are men allowed to wear baseball caps in stores?

Technically, no. They need to take them off while in the store. Although this rule isn't enforced as often as it should. Wearing it backwards is okay.

**dallison** · February 7th, 2012, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jezi

Technically, no. They need to take them off while in the store. Although this rule isn't enforced as often as it should. Wearing it backwards is okay.

Thanks to both for the responses!

I took issue with head scarves being frowned upon. I actually find a lot of them quite beautiful and don't find that they hide the face at all.
That lead to me being curious about caps.

**faithanne** · February 7th, 2012, 09:55 PM

What about surgical masks, are they banned in the streets? I see busloads of Asian tourists wearing them all over Sydney.

**Jezi** · February 8th, 2012, 09:54 AM

^^Also, technically not allowed. But I doubt police or anyone else care that much if they're tourists.

**OrangeSlice** · February 8th, 2012, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by sputnik

i've had this debate over and over with friends, and usually it's the brits and americans who can't understand why most europeans seem to agree with it, even the lefties. i guess they put a lot more emphasis on symbolic individual rights, without stopping to think that while they're getting riled up about a headscarf, their bigger, more important rights are being eroded every single day by things like the patriot act and other laws that make it legal for their governments to pretty much hold anyone indefinitely without a trial, or even charges.
and yet they're baffled by laws such as mandatory ID cards in europe, or the recent wave of burqa bans...

I think this observation is spot-on. The first instinct is to kick and scream about the symbolic individual rights without thinking about the long-term bigger picture. I don't know how many times I've had this debate with co-workers. I used to be the same way and am still guilty of it a good bit. But the question is- what I say to them is, look around, is what we're doing now working for us? (Not so much) That being said, I see both sides of the argument here. There's a huge gray area and it's tough to draw the line at any one point and enforce it equally.