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Thread: The Migrant/Refugee Crisis In Europe

  1. #46
    A*O
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    But just giving them emergency food, clothing, shelter isn't the solution. They are seeking permanent settlement, jobs, education, healthcare, etc. Which European countries (taxpayers) can afford that? We're talking about upwards of a million people. 800,000 have arrived in Germany alone this year. Then there's the underpaying concern that among the genuine refugees there are certainly people - mostly single young males aged 18-30 - from Africa and Asia who aren't fleeing war zones at all, but are economic migrants who can't legally gain access to Shangri La via the front door so they come in illegally via the back posing as refugees. And among them are a small but dangerous number of jihadis with a much more sinister agenda.

    When the boats were allowed across the Australian border from Indonesia carrying some 50,000 people we discovered that many of them were in fact Iranian criminals allowed out prison by their Govt and sent to Australia to become someone else's problem. None had passports or paperwork of course so it was impossible to verify their identity or background. They were held in detention for processing (amid much squawking from the do gooders and advocates) but most are now living in the community enjoying generous welfare and other benefits. And people wonder why this makes the locals a bit uneasy.

    Note: The father whose 2 sons and wife tragically drowned en route to Europe and who've been living safely in Turkey for the last 3 years returned equally safely to Syria to bury his family. There's no black and white; good and bad here.

    Five of the wealthiest Muslim countries have taken no Syrian refugees in at all, arguing that doing so would open them up to the risk of terrorism. Although the oil rich countries have handed over aid money, Britain has donated more than Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar combined.

    Last edited by A*O; September 5th, 2015 at 11:42 PM.
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  2. #47
    Elite Member yanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucianodel View Post
    Facebook is already flooding with pictures of refugee men pictures and their pictures in army suits... it's getting interesting. And the video of how the refugee men are behaving are really not doing them any favors, propaganda or not. It's all one huge mess.
    In the island of Kos the refugees have turned the main town into a ghost town. No tourist can set foot there. They block streets and protest all the time. They leave trash everywhere they go, all beaches, by the side of the road, just everywhere and they've turned the place into a toilet. There is no keeping up with them to keep the island looking somewhat presentable and prevent biohazards. Locals have seen them repeatedly just peeing on the castle walls even though the town has provided portaloos for them. It is hard to remain sympathetic to people who have been trashing your home and have practically destroyed your tourist season.

    I understand that they are suffering in their home countries but so many of them are not even displaced refugees, just economic migrants off to try and make money in Europe. They have such a distorted view of what Europe is, too, some were left stranded in Austria and were freaking out because Austria is such a horrible place and they had to make it to Germany no matter what!

    I know that not all of them are the same. There are moderate, educated middle class people among them but so many are just so ignorant and I just don't know what on earth we are to do with all these people?
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    Gold Member lucianodel's Avatar
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    Well, I'm sure those men will be just fine in Germany. When I was in Berlin it was funny to see some 50+ German lady coming out of some bush near the street, fixing her pants, and a young Turk coming out after her, hehe.

  4. #49
    Elite Member rollo's Avatar
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    Quote A*O

    Five of the wealthiest Muslim countries have taken no Syrian refugees in at all, arguing that doing so would open them up to the risk of terrorism

    You couldn't make it up. This is a global problem. They are heading to USA and Canada too btw. The problem seems to be partly one of education - if you have no skills in your own country, you can't transfer your skills anywhere else. The professionals and skilled tradesmen will have better luck but this raises the issue of displacing the local working population which is already a contentious subject. Every employer wants cheap, hard-working employees who will work all hours and do not make a fuss.

    The ones who do not intend to work (or can't) are a nightmare for every country which is already full of its own struggling citizens and not only can the welfare system not cope but also the justice system as well.

    What will happen when these utopian services break down?
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    Gold Member ADel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    But just giving them emergency food, clothing, shelter isn't the solution.
    But this actually is the solution. This is what aid to refugees is, or rather should be. It's supposed to be temporary until the political upheaval is resolved, at which time you go back to your own country, with aid from wealthier nations, and rebuild. If, as a people, you marvel at and desire a socially benevolent society with generous benefits, you make it happen in your own country, again with support from outside nations, if necessary.

    Turkey has a model refugee camp. More of this type of set-up required.

    It is unrealistic for Europe, Australia, the U.S.and Canada to absorb all of these people and provide them, permanently, with the particular brand of better life they're looking for. It can't happen. The man whose toddler drowned was not a refugee. He was already settled in Turkey, having lived (and worked!) there for three years. Granted, he was poor but poor is not refugee. His Canadian relative told him to travel to Europe to get his teeth fixed and then make his way to Canada. Um...hello...other countries aren't your free dentistry. That's not how things work.

    These images from Greece are very troubling:

    Last edited by ADel; September 6th, 2015 at 09:19 AM.
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  6. #51
    Elite Member rollo's Avatar
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    ^ I agree with A*O that giving emergency provisions is not the solution and prolongs the agony for a short-term fix or soundbite.

    The media is fully onto this and has changed in a few days from "Eek refugees" to "Open your homes" and neither is helpful or will work.

    Is there even such a thing as a 'model refugee camp?' Look at what has happened in Gaza, for example.
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    They do not want to stay in camps,they want to go to Germany,France,England ,Canada,the Us ,Sweden maybe.Some of them refuge the Red Cross help because of the cross.It is complicated and it needs urgent solution.Population in here is truly helpful but they are getting tired.Ilands lost half the tourist reason in such rough times.Athens is bursting and we are doing our best,not enough it seems..EE must move fast..
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  8. #53
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    There's a piece in USA today about this.

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    Elite Member Slushie's Avatar
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    This is all such a mess, and it's only the beginning. Absolutely no coordination between European nations, Germany opening up its borders because it needs the potential workforce and expecting other EU countries to follow suit even though there's far more vocal opposition there, and still nothing being proposed for the long-term.

  10. #55
    Elite Member Geest's Avatar
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    The Austrian-Hungarian boarder is open, refugees are being shuttled. New refugees arrive to the Hungarian -Serbian boarder, refuse to register and go to camp, expect a bus straight to the other boarder. The Austrians are quite vocal, that the weekend opening was an emergency and they will gradually shut the border down again. I'm not surprised everyone wants to get through while they can...

    Civilians are still bearing the brunt of looking after the refugees. :/

  11. #56
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    Peter Hitchens: “It may not be ideal, but the definition of a refugee is that he is fleeing from danger, not fleeing towards a higher standard of living.”

    “Every one of the posturing notables simpering ‘refugees welcome' should be asked if he or she will take a refugee family into his or her home for an indefinite period, and pay for their food, medical treatment and education.

    “If so, they mean it. If not, they are merely demanding that others pay and make room so that they can experience a self-righteous glow. No doubt the same people are also sentimental enthusiasts for the ‘living wage’, and ‘social housing’, when in fact open borders are steadily pushing wages down and housing costs up.

    “As William Blake rightly said: ‘He who would do good to another must do it in minute particulars. General good is the plea of the scoundrel, hypocrite and flatterer.’”
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  12. #57
    Elite Member Slushie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geest View Post
    The Austrian-Hungarian boarder is open, refugees are being shuttled. New refugees arrive to the Hungarian -Serbian boarder, refuse to register and go to camp, expect a bus straight to the other boarder. The Austrians are quite vocal, that the weekend opening was an emergency and they will gradually shut the border down again. I'm not surprised everyone wants to get through while they can...

    Civilians are still bearing the brunt of looking after the refugees. :/
    I honestly don't see the point of closing it again when it will just have to be reopened in a few days. There's a steady stream of migrants/refugees coming up through the Balkans to get to Hungary and as we've seen this weekend, many will only take Germany as their final destination, particularly seeing as Merkel has opened her arms to them.

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    I read that Merkel is being very (over?) cautious in her response to avoid conjuring up images and memories of dispossessed people being loaded onto trains and shipped out of the country.
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  14. #59
    Gold Member ADel's Avatar
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    A large number of fleeing migrants are young able-bodied men. Why aren't they fighting for their country? If ISIS is overtaking their land why aren't they fighting? And why should other nations send their young able-bodied men to fight if their own young able bodied men are not?

    Refugees should be women, children, the old, the infirm.

    Their country is at war. All able-bodied men should be fighting to end it and then working to restore the country for themselves, their women, children, elderly and sick.



    If my state were invaded, the last thing I would want is for the young able-bodied men to leave. I want them to fight and drive out the invader. I guess I'm misguided.

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    ISIS has claimed that some 4,000 jihadis have entered Europe posing as refugees where they plan to set up terrorist cells and continue their barbaric campaign. There's no way of checking of course but I totally believe it.

    I'm not sure it's realistic to expect fit young men to stay and fight but it's true there's an overwhelming majority of them. Some Syrians of course but also Bangladeshis, Nigerians, Somalis, Sri Lankans, Afghanis, etc. These men aren't fleeing war zones, they are economic migrants. Big difference. Unfortunately without any documentation (deliberate) there's no way of checking exactly who they are or where they're from.

    Meanwhile, here are the facts behind the tragic little drowned boy whose picture has galvanised the world into realising how serious, and complex, this is.

    [QUOTE]Aylan was not in “harm’s way”. He was not a refugee. His family was not fleeing IS, had actually been living
    Aylan’s family, while originally from the Syrian border town of Kobani, recently besieged by in safety in Turkey for three years.

    Their Facebook page shows them in Istanbul, feeding pigeons by the great New Mosque. Aylan’s father, Abdullah, worked on construction sites.

    No wonder, perhaps, that the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees would not recognise the family as refugees.

    But Abdullah Kurdi had a sister in Canada, Tima Kurdi, who sent money to help pay the rent.

    Tima Kurdi applied to Canadian immigration officials to bring in another brother as a refugee, and was asked to supply more information. She planned to later sponsor Abdullah Kurdi’s family, too.

    So ... what exactly was he “fleeing” when he paid a people smuggler thousands of dollars to bring his family — without safety vests — to Greece, to join that irresistible army of illegal immigrants now smashing through Europe’s borders?

    Tima Kurdi explained… “The situation is that Abdullah does not have any teeth…

    “So I been trying to help him fix his teeth. But is gonna cost me 14,000 and up to do it …

    “Actually my dad, he come up with the idea, he said to me, ‘I think if they go to Europe for his case and for our future, I think he should do that, and then we’ll see if he can fix his teeth’.

    “And that’s what I did three weeks ago.” She sent her brother the money for people smugglers.

    Now, it is terrible to have no teeth. Awful to be poor. A misery to have your children denied chances.

    But can the West really take in not just real refugees, but the Third World’s poor as well, including those in search of better dentistry?[\QUOTE]

    Mark Steyn (who's been predicting exactly this scenario for years)

    Oh, but they're refugees! From the Syrian civil war!

    According to the United Nations, 49 per cent are non-Syrian. As to whether they're refugees, well, usually, refugees flees as families. Yet here, from those UN statistics, is he breakdown of those "refugees":

    13 per cent children
    12 per cent women
    75 per cent men

    That's not the demographic distribution of fleeing refugees, but of an invading army.
    Last edited by A*O; September 7th, 2015 at 09:50 PM.
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