Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit freed in swap for 1,000 prisoners

[NHKMM]

^^^^
i have a question that doesn't really have to do with the topic of this thread: what do you think of the settlements? do you think israel has a right to kust keep expanding wherever they want and claiming more land and building these settlements? how do you justify that?

I think you talk from lack of knowledge. I suppose you haven't heard of the unilateral disengagement plan from 2005 where Israel evicted all Israelis from the Gaza Strip and from four settlements in the northern West Bank. If anything, the Palestinians keep getting more and more land as time goes by.

I really think you get a twisted view from the media and have absolutely NO idea what's it like to live in Israel and what REALLY happens here. I would absolutely want peace with the arab and a good settelment - - - but you can't expect Israel not to defend itself and demend rights when there are STILL bombings and attacks by terrorists (Last one was this Saturday, when a 17 year old got stabbed in Jerusalem)

Fatal Terrorist Attacks in Israel Since the Oslo Accords (1993-2011)

[sputnik]

i'm not just talking about gaza. why did the government just approve new settlements in late september?


EU 'deplores’ Israel’s approval of new settlements - Telegraph

and if palestinians keep getting more and more land, what do you make of these maps?



more and more land for palestinians, you say? or are these maps also an invention of the media to make israel look bad?

look, i really don't have a lot of sympathy for the palestinian government right now, i think they're a total disaster and the worst thing that could have happened, but i also don't believe you really want peace with the palestinians because if you did, you would also be willing to acknowledge the many mistakes and abuses israel has committed as well instead of refusing to acknowledge any criticism and saying that it's the media that distorts everything and that israel is just trying to 'defend itself'. if you want to reach a peace agreement with palestine, you're going to have to give a lot of land back, and not just disjointed little crappy bits here and there separated by checkpoints, while israel keeps the best parts for itself.

[NHKMM]

i'm not just talking about gaza. why did the government just approve new settlements in late september?

LOL. I won't go into the wrong or right here (wrong idea, if you ask me - - - and I'm completely againts most settlements ) - but that's completely irrelevent to this topic because it's a very, VERY small piece of land.

Still, the "recent" map is from 2000!!!!!!!!!!!! Almost 12 years ago! And I posted earlier that the eviction was in 2006. You really don't read my posts - what's the point of having a conversation that way?

BTW - Israel is a Jewish land from 1948!!! So even the what's written in the maps is bullshit.

but i also don't believe you really want peace with the palestinians because if you did, you would also be willing to acknowledge the many mistakes and abuses israel has committed

I never said Israel is perfect and there WERE many mistakes it made. And yes, I am aware of how the palestinians live in Gaza.

And as someone who served my country for 3 years as a combat medic in the armored corps who saved MANY palestinian lives - - - let me tell you that the Israeli army is usually VERY human and considerate towards the Palestinians (individual soldiers who don't tread with respect are idiots and always get punished)

as well instead of refusing to acknowledge any criticism and saying that it's the media that distorts everything and that israel is just trying to 'defend itself'.

Well, it mostly IS true. Sorry. The media in the US and Europe shows things in VERY different light to what they really are.

if you want to reach a peace agreement with palestine, you're going to have to give a lot of land back

Obviously - problem is - there will never be enough land to give - - - and terror will keep going, like it already has. Do you understand what this country means to the Jewish people? Or you probably forgot what happend in world war 2.

and not just disjointed little crappy bits here and there separated by checkpoints, while israel keeps the best parts for itself.

"Seperated by checkpoints"? Well, I suppose it's better to remove them and let ANYONE get into the county and command bombings? Which, unfortunately IS what happens. I assume you didn't even check the link I gave you.

I don't mind you expressing an opinion - I just think you're biased and very negative towards my country. Things aren't always black and white. But since I see you don't even bother reading my stuff, check actual, CURRENT facts and rely on maps from 12 years ago - I'll finish it right now. Have a great day!

[sputnik]

LOL. I won't go into the wrong or right here (wrong idea, if you ask me - - - and I'm completely againts most settlements ) - but that's completely irrelevent because it's a very, VERY small piece of land.

why won't you go into the right or wrong of the settlements? that's precisely the question here. whether it's a small or large piece of land is irrelevant, continuing the settlements is a signal of bad faith on behalf of israel and of course receives criticism from most of the rest of the world.

Still, the "recent" map is from 2000!!!!!!!!!!!! And I showed you that the eviction was in 2006. You really don't read my posts I see.

i did. and how much did palestine get back since 2000? enough to make for a considerably different map? i doubt it.
in fact, here's a map showing settlements in 2007.

Well, it mostly IS true. Sorry. The media in the US and Europe shows things in VERY different light to what they really are.

what they really are, according to israeli media. if everyone, even the right wing media that traditionally defended israel, is becoming increasingly critical, don't you think it's time to maybe stop and consider that they might have a point?

Obviously - problem is - there will never be enough land to give.

how about giving back everything that wasn't part of the agreed-upon by both sides borders in 1967?

Do you understand what this country means to the Jewish people? Or you probably forgot what happend in world war 2.

i do understand. but it seems the israeli government has forgotten and is instead building walls around palestinians and fencing them in, kinda like the nazis did with Jewish ghettos in warsaw, etc...

"Seperated by checkpoints"? Well, I suppose it's better to remove them and let ANYONE get into the county and command bombings? Which, unfortunately IS what happens. I assume you didn't even check the link I gave you.

what i meant by that is, what kind of country do you expect palestinians to have if it is one that is fragmented into tiny little pieces separated by checkpoints? not exactly conducive to development and statehood, is it? why should they agree to a peace agreement that would involve being left with a country that's cut up into tiny little pieces?

I don't mind you expressing an opinion - I just think you're biased and very negative towards my country. Things aren't always black and white.

i'm actually not. i've actually been accused of being pro-israeli by people who were very staunchly pro-palestinian. that's the thing - this is a conflict where one can't choose sides. and trust me, for every criticism i make of israel, i make just as many - if not more - of the palestinians' actions. and i am absolutely critical of terrorism in any form. but being victims of terrorism doesn't mean the other side hasn't acted in ways that explains why there are terrorists in the first place, and it also doesn't give them the right to act in ways which are sometimes as bad as what the terrorists are doing.

[NHKMM]

why won't you go into the right or wrong of the settlements? that's precisely the question here. whether it's a small or large piece of land is irrelevant, continuing the settlements is a signal of bad faith on behalf of israel and of course receives criticism from most of the rest of the world.

It is still in process, and BOTH SIDES need to settle - - - yes - it means that Israel doesn't have to agree to everything! (And vice versa, of course)
(BTW - in 2006 almost 100,000 Israeli settlement citizens were evacuated - and rightfully so! - so don't think I'm anti-Palestinians, because I'm not)

i did. and how much did palestine get back since 2000? enough to make for a considerably different map? i doubt it.
in fact, here's a map showing settlements in 2007.

That's not a full Israel map.

what they really are, according to israeli media. if everyone, even the right wing media that traditionally defended israel, is becoming increasingly critical, don't you think it's time to maybe stop and consider that they might have a point?

This "media" doesn't even report 90% of the terror in Israel. So no, unless you're LIVING HERE you have no idea how's it like. For BOTH SIDES.

how about giving back everything that wasn't part of the agreed-upon by both sides borders in 1967?

That's actually in the making. And I support that. Just so you'd know.

i'm actually not. i've actually been accused of being pro-israeli by people who were very staunchly pro-palestinian.

I'm not stupid. You were obviously trying to start womething with your first post "i have a question that doesn't really have to do with the topic of this thread: what do you think of the settlements? do you think israel has a right to kust keep expanding wherever they want and claiming more land and building these settlements? how do you justify that?". - - - Which is ok, but don't claim to be something that you're not.

that's the thing - this is a conflict where one can't choose sides. and trust me, for every criticism i make of israel, i make just as many - if not more - of the palestinians' actions.

Obviously, it's not that hard.

and it also doesn't give them the right to act in ways which are sometimes as bad as what the terrorists are doing.

I agree - although it's not very common - when it happens though, it is emberassing and there's no excuse for it to happen!

but being victims of terrorism doesn't mean the other side hasn't acted in ways that explains why there are terrorists in the first place

There is NO excuse for killing people. - - - funny you're posting it next to:

and i am absolutely critical of terrorism in any form.

- doesn't seem like it.

i do understand. but it seems the israeli government has forgotten and is instead building walls around palestinians and fencing them in, kinda like the nazis did with Jewish ghettos in warsaw, etc...

This argument is over by me, after posting such stupid, uneducated and provocative statement. Have a nice day. (you can reply, I'm not interested to continue...sorry )

[WhateverLolaWants]

2011 map


And here are some of the checkpoints (That aren't the floating check points)


Palestinians have to go through these checkpoints before continuing on Palestinian roads and into cities. This often causes ambulances to take hours to get to hospitals and keeps people from getting to work on time because it is static how long you can throughy these checkpoints. Often Palestinian men and boys are kept from getting through to cities at all, regardless of who they are.

It seems to be because of fear. I sympathize with both sides. The Israelis have reason to fear; the Hamas-lead govt of Palestine doesn't show much initiative in stopping the terrorist attacks by its more extreme members. This Israelis constantly live with the fear of being attacked. All most Israelis want is a country where they finally can exist without persecution; their own country. And shouldn't they have that, since the land is not only promised to them by international law but was also bought and paid for?

And yet some Israelis, some *extremists* are not content. They want the West Bank as well. So they infiltrate and set up the settlements, usually starting with a trailer and poisoning the wells of the Palestinaian cities around them, hazing the villagers and trying to make life as unpleasant for them as possible. They invite and bring in as many people as they can to set up in the area to basically camp it and bother(by bother I mean poison their wells and threaten them with firearms) the Palestinians and cut them off from their farm lands. Then, with any luck, they get enough people to build houses and a real city and then Bam...settlement. There are billboards along road sides offering money to families if they will settle in the settlement areas once the settlements get enough people and resources to be considered a sort of satellite Israeli territory. And then walls go up around the settlements and the West Bank gets carved up.

If the Palestinians do not use their farm lands, they can be reappropriated and taken away. The check points and Walls around the settlements block palestianian farmers from reaching their farmland in many cases, blocking them from harvesting, not only hurting them economically, but eventually taking away their land.

Check points, instead of being just outside the outside of the West Bank or at the entrances to Isreali settlements are all over the roads, spread willy-nilly between Palestinian villages and there are floating checkpoints constructed on a whim. It can take hours to get through each checkpoint. Often times men and boys can't get through at all.

One can argue all of this is for Israeli safety, but I think it is clear that it goes beyond that. As long as the Israelis govt gives money and resources to the Settlements and check points inside the West Bank, it is clear that they are content to occupy it, because whether it is official or not, it is the only explanation for this participation.

The Israelis fear, and justifiably so, but by turning a blind eye and encouraging, all be it in a backdoor sort of way, ethnic cleansing in the west bank, they seem to be participating in exactly the behavior they fear.

NHKMM: Any feedback or refutation you have on any of this is most welcome. I would love to be proved wrong, but haven't seen anything yet to sway this view.

[NHKMM]

Palestinians have to go through these checkpoints before continuing on Palestinian roads and into cities. This often causes ambulances to take hours to get to hospitals and keeps people from getting to work on time because it is static how long you can throughy these checkpoints. Often Palestinian men and boys are kept from getting through to cities at all, regardless of who they are.

I agree that some of them are unnessecery and cause nothing but rage and bitterness. I repeat though - SOME of them.

Many of them are needed though - including the "floating" ones which are used when there's information about criminals, terrorists, etc. that come from a specific place to another. (Even if it's violence/crimes toward Palestinian citizens - btw. (For example, we returned a stolen car of a nice guy from one of the Palestine villege )

Unfortunately, during checkposts we have even found weapons in one of the cars.

I can only speak for myself and the people I served with - but we ALWAYS treated anyone with the greatest respect. Even when we were getting stones thrown at as and other types of violence (unfortunately I suffered a major injury after I got hit by a rock (yes, rock) in the back by an older female)

BTW - the ambulance/hospital thing is not really true. In many cases they come to the checkpoints in Israel and we were the ones to take care of them - because their medical forces didn't even care enough to come... I witnessed that many times unfortunately.

It seems to be because of fear. I sympathize with both sides. The Israelis have reason to fear; the Hamas-lead govt of Palestine doesn't show much initiative in stopping the terrorist attacks by its more extreme members. This Israelis constantly live with the fear of being attacked. All most Israelis want is a country where they finally can exist without persecution; their own country. And shouldn't they have that, since the land is not only promised to them by international law but was also bought and paid for?

And yet some Israelis, some *extremists* are not content. They want the West Bank as well. So they infiltrate and set up the settlements, usually starting with a trailer and poisoning the wells of the Palestinaian cities around them, hazing the villagers and trying to make life as unpleasant for them as possible. They invite and bring in as many people as they can to set up in the area to basically camp it and bother(by bother I mean poison their wells and threaten them with firearms) the Palestinians and cut them off from their farm lands. Then, with any luck, they get enough people to build houses and a real city and then Bam...settlement. There are billboards along road sides offering money to families if they will settle in the settlement areas once the settlements get enough people and resources to be considered a sort of satellite Israeli territory. And then walls go up around the settlements and the West Bank gets carved up.

That's not very common - but yes, there are extremists of that kind and I absolutely HATE them. Even when I served the army, they caused nothing but trouble and we couldn't stand them.

If the Palestinians do not use their farm lands, they can be reappropriated and taken away. The check points and Walls around the settlements block palestianian farmers from reaching their farmland in many cases, blocking them from harvesting, not only hurting them economically, but eventually taking away their land.

Agree.

One can argue all of this is for Israeli safety, but I think it is clear that it goes beyond that. As long as the Israelis govt gives money and resources to the Settlements and check points inside the West Bank, it is clear that they are content to occupy it, because whether it is official or not, it is the only explanation for this participation.

The Israelis fear, and justifiably so, but by turning a blind eye and encouraging, all be it in a backdoor sort of way, ethnic cleansing in the west bank, they seem to be participating in exactly the behavior they fear.

Sometimes there is no other choice. I hope things get better eventually.

[NHKMM]

Al-Jazeera Wafa Sultan discussion on Muslim belief and clash of civilizations. - YouTube

Last thing - I'd like all of you to watch this highly intelligent woman, Dr. Wafa Sultan - on Al Jazeera.

[McJag]

Al-Jazeera Wafa Sultan discussion on Muslim belief and clash of civilizations. - YouTube

Last thing - I'd like all of you to watch this highly intelligent woman, Dr. Wafa Sultan - on Al Jazeera.

That woman is wonderful! I particularly liked, it is a clash between
Those who treat women like beasts
and those who treat women like human beings.
That is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but.

[Grimmlok]

I really don't think that was appropriate, considering the thread's original topic.

It's always fucking appropriate when anything to do with israel or palestine comes up because it's always the same fucking shit over and over.

[NHKMM]

It's always fucking appropriate when anything to do with israel or palestine comes up because it's always the same fucking shit over and over.

Then don't read it

[NHKMM]

That woman is wonderful!

She really is!

[WhateverLolaWants]

Thank you, MHKMM very helpful

[NHKMM]

Thank you, MHKMM very helpful

[Working Girl]

Even though i am happy for him and his family it is a shame that the exchange included Amina Mona, a young woman who lured a lovestruck Israeli teenage boy to a Palestinian city over the Internet, only to have him killed by waiting militants.