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Thread: Israel Attacks Unarmed Aid Flotilla in International Waters, Several Dead

  1. #226
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I sort of agree with Sojita on the population exchange. I heard that it happened with Greece and Turkey when Greece got its independence from the Ottoman Empire.

    One of the reasons that Israel will eventually have to let go of the West Bank is because, as fast as Israel colonizes the West Bank, they can't keep pace with the Palestinian's population growth. Which means, eventually, there will be more voting Palestinians in "greater Israel".

    And some Israelis are thinking about giving Palestinians something like a percentage of a Jewish Israeli's vote in order to counter this, which some people describe as a form of Apartheid.

    If Israel lets go of the West Bank, that would reduce the issue. If, however, Israel lets go of the West Bank and has some kind of population exchange with West Bank Palestinians, I think that you would eliminate the issue entirely. The problem is that you have too many zealots on either side. And it leaves aside the huge problem of East Jerusalem.
    I think those are huge problems as well. If only Israel would be willing to give Jerusalem up to be a sort of 'free city' governed by some greater authority(like the UN, lame I know). But that will never happen. Only if they were somehow forced to.

    If somehow the zealots on both sides would cool it a bit, with an independent West Bank Palestinian State helped with economic development and aid, a 'free city Jerusalem", ...alot of 'if only's'..

    Better chances of them nuking it out and destroying eachother. JMHO.
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    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Isn't that the real issue that America arms Israel but not the Palestinians?

    So let's be fair. Arm both sides to the teeth and whoever survives gets to keep the barren wasteland. Fight to the death. We can all watch on pay per view.
    I'll put my money on the Jews. Thems some tough motherfuckers. I'll admit to being biased in their favor most of the time anyway.
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    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I sort of agree with Sojita on the population exchange. I heard that it happened with Greece and Turkey when Greece got its independence from the Ottoman Empire.

    One of the reasons that Israel will eventually have to let go of the West Bank is because, as fast as Israel colonizes the West Bank, they can't keep pace with the Palestinian's population growth. Which means, eventually, there will be more voting Palestinians in "greater Israel".

    And some Israelis are thinking about giving Palestinians something like a percentage of a Jewish Israeli's vote in order to counter this, which some people describe as a form of Apartheid.

    If Israel lets go of the West Bank, that would reduce the issue. If, however, Israel lets go of the West Bank and has some kind of population exchange with West Bank Palestinians, I think that you would eliminate the issue entirely. The problem is that you have too many zealots on either side. And it leaves aside the huge problem of East Jerusalem.
    It's not going to be an issue of the Israelis simply decide to keep stealing land and populating it (settlements anyone?) and fuck the fact that people are living on smaller and smaller parcels of land. You give the Israeli government too much credit for having a sense of humanity. Personally, as someone who supported some very dodgy actions by then and has now had enough I will say that the Israelis are behaving in a very similar way to South Africa in the 80's-

    Quote Originally Posted by piperdiva View Post
    Guys, Hamas is a terrorist organization. The PA is not. You really don't hear much about crap happening in the West Bank anymore. I think this two state thing could happen if the PA governed Gaza.
    Funny, but George Washington was labeled a terrorist by the British prior to, and during, the revolution. I don't agree with much that Hamas does but the United States and Israel pushed for an election in the territories and then got pissed off when the result didn't suit them. They'd be better off looking at why the populace decided to vote a big fuck you than continuing with their oppressive policies.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

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  4. #229
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    It's not going to be an issue of the Israelis simply decide to keep stealing land and populating it (settlements anyone?) and fuck the fact that people are living on smaller and smaller parcels of land. You give the Israeli government too much credit for having a sense of humanity. Personally, as someone who supported some very dodgy actions by then and has now had enough I will say that the Israelis are behaving in a very similar way to South Africa in the 80's-



    Funny, but George Washington was labeled a terrorist by the British prior to, and during, the revolution. I don't agree with much that Hamas does but the United States and Israel pushed for an election in the territories and then got pissed off when the result didn't suit them. They'd be better off looking at why the populace decided to vote a big fuck you than continuing with their oppressive policies.
    I don't think either side is going to do much towards peace unless they are absolutely forced into it. I think it is more likely that Israel, instead of accepting two states and a population movement, will simply decide to keep all of the territory and, maybe in the middle of a localized war, simply expell the Palestinians (and possibly their own arab non-Jewish population) from the West Bank, Gaza, and (for the non-Jews in Israel) Israel itself. A self-ethnic cleansing.

    And I see more similarities concerning Israel with Apartheid South Africa than I do with the Nazis, given comparisons.

    Interesting that the term 'concentration camp' was first used by the British when they interned the Boer rural population in the Boer War-in South Africa.

    I don't know why I still support Israel as I do, but I do. Of course I do not like alot of things they do, but I also do not like alot of things their neighbors do as well. It is hard to feel compassion at times for Palestinians when gays are so hated and are actually murdered by family members in 'honor killings' and basically have no rights. I guess it is my 'anti Islamicist bias'-I have admitted to having big problems with Islam, particularly how it is practiced by the zealots-makes fundie Xians look tame by comparison.
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    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Soj, if we go back in history we have to remember that the Palestinians were forcibly removed from much of what is now Israel. And concentration camp is an old expression that was used by the bloody russians and many before them. I support Israels right to exist. I do not support their continued oppression and abuse of an entire people. I'm sick of their shit and I'm sick of them hiding behind either the anti-semitism cloak or the Holocaust cloak. Man up and face up to the fact that they are essentially the architects of the demise of an entire people. They shoudl be ashamed, particularly in light of thier history. I don't give a fuck about security at this point. They've reaped what they've sown. The chickens have come hone to roost. I don't see any way out for either side other than a straight out, even handed war. But that won't happen as long as the cards on weighed in favour of the Israelis, mainly due to the blind support of the US government.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
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  6. #231
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    Soj, if we go back in history we have to remember that the Palestinians were forcibly removed from much of what is now Israel. And concentration camp is an old expression that was used by the bloody russians and many before them. I support Israels right to exist. I do not support their continued oppression and abuse of an entire people. I'm sick of their shit and I'm sick of them hiding behind either the anti-semitism cloak or the Holocaust cloak. Man up and face up to the fact that they are essentially the architects of the demise of an entire people. They shoudl be ashamed, particularly in light of thier history. I don't give a fuck about security at this point. They've reaped what they've sown. The chickens have come hone to roost. I don't see any way out for either side other than a straight out, even handed war. But that won't happen as long as the cards on weighed in favour of the Israelis, mainly due to the blind support of the US government.
    Well in that case, if that is all there is to it, then I support continuing to arm Israel, and if it is war, I hope they win. And hope some arab nations are willing to take in what is left of the Palestinians.

    And yes, I know the history of Jewish repopulation of Palestine going back over 100 years. And there was alot more to it than 'they were forcibly removed'. The current state of affairs is due to more than a few wars. It could be argued that the Palestinians would not give an inch, and so therefore lost a mile.
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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Frankly, why should they have had to give an inch? They were displaced by the major world powers at the time.

    I mean think about it: what if Russia, China, Japan and India told the US: guess what, you all need to move out because venezuelans are going to be taking over your country now, and then all Americans were herded onto Manhattan island and Baja at gunpoint.

    How well would that go over.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    Well in that case, if that is all there is to it, then I support continuing to arm Israel, and if it is war, I hope they win. And hope some arab nations are willing to take in what is left of the Palestinians.
    They aren't. That's been a long standing part of the problem. The other Arab nations like to use the "Palestinian people" as leverage against Israel, and as a partial explanation as to why they hate Israel, but truthfully they couldn't care less about the actual Palestinians. Many of the tribes there hate each other.

    Most of the nations in the area didn't exist until the Brits redrew the map after WW1. They gave Hussein ibn Ali the Hejaz, they put his son Faisal on the throne of Syria- but the French threw a fit so they moved him to Iraq. Faisal's brother Abdullah was given Transjordan. In the 20's Ibn Saud- the man who put the Saudi in Saudi Arabia- chased Hussein ibn Ali out of the Hejaz.

    The Jordanians should hate the Iraqis too, since the Baathists killed every available member of the Hashemite family in 1958. But Jordan and Iraq are too busy hating Syria for allying with Iran, and in the past invading Lebanon and trying to gain control of the PLO.

    In 1970 the PLO nearly toppled King Hussein of Jordan, wherupon the king, with Iraqi support, exterminated thousands of Palestinians. Thus the Palestinians hate the Jordanians- but since 65% of Jordanians are Palestinian it's easier for everybody just to hate Israel.

    It gives one a headache just to think about it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    And yes, I know the history of Jewish repopulation of Palestine going back over 100 years. And there was alot more to it than 'they were forcibly removed'. The current state of affairs is due to more than a few wars. It could be argued that the Palestinians would not give an inch, and so therefore lost a mile.
    Yes, the history is long and complex. Some of the 'stolen' land was even bought in regular real estate transactions, cash on the barrel. How come no one ever screams about that part of Palestine that was given to Jordan by the Brits? No one ever says the Jordanians should give that part back to the Palestians, even though it was gotten in the same way.

    A two state solution is what is needed, but both Hamas and the super hard line Israelis have made it clear they don't want that.
    Last edited by witchcurlgirl; June 7th, 2010 at 08:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Frankly, why should they have had to give an inch? They were displaced by the major world powers at the time.

    I mean think about it: what if Russia, China, Japan and India told the US: guess what, you all need to move out because venezuelans are going to be taking over your country now, and then all Americans were herded onto Manhattan island and Baja at gunpoint.

    How well would that go over.
    The big different is that USA is an independent country. Amrican people lead Amrican pepole.
    In Israel the the Romans lead, the Turkish lead, the Brit lead evryone lead exsept the palestinians, they never lead or wish to, they never fight to lead this country.
    Their fight start only when the Jweish came here, the some time when they been given the chance to lead thier people - a chance they reject.

    As far for US arms Israel - Iran arms Hamas

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    Quote Originally Posted by piperdiva View Post
    Guys, Hamas is a terrorist organization. The PA is not. You really don't hear much about crap happening in the West Bank anymore. I think this two state thing could happen if the PA governed Gaza.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    PA are collaborators, plain and simple.


    Why the negative? the PA (thats mean fatah right?) provide the pepole in the West Bank a "normal" life without war or violent. they go to UNI, have good jobs and etc... Yes there are problems and issues to works on but see the life in the West Bank and the life in Gaza.
    Those PA leader that you despise so much for some reason live among their people while the Hamas leaders live safe in Damesek not in Gaza.


    Last edited by marie; June 8th, 2010 at 07:02 AM.

  11. #236
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Well, I'd rather be a woman in Israel than in any Muslim country I can think of, so that settles it for me.
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  12. #237
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Even secular Turkey?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #238
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    Well, I'd rather be a woman in Israel than in any Muslim country I can think of, so that settles it for me.
    And I would rather be a gay guy in Israel than in any Muslim country that I can think of.


    And yeah, that includes secular Turkey*, where I recently read about an 'honor killing' of a gay man.

    *how long are they going to stay secular?
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    ^ They're getting less secular by the day. Erdogan bears watching.



    EGYPT WILL STOP IT'S GAZA BLOCKADE


    SHARM EL-SHEIKH, Egypt After three years of cooperating in the Israeli blockade of Gaza, Egypt said Monday that it will leave its border with the Palestinian territory open indefinitely for humanitarian aid and restricted travel.

    With international pressure building to ease the blockade, an Egyptian security official said sealing off Hamas-ruled Gaza has only bred more militancy.

    The decision to ease the restrictions erected by Israel to isolate and punish Hamas comes a week after a deadly Israeli raid on a flotilla of activists trying to break the blockade.

    The move restores a link to the outside world for at least some of Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinians. It also appeared calculated to defuse anger in the Arab and Muslim world over Egypt's role in maintaining the blockade and to show that Egypt, too, is now pressing Israel to open at least its land crossings with Gaza.

    "Egypt is the one that broke the blockade," Egyptian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hossam Zaki said. "We are not going to let the occupying power escape from its responsibilities."

    Israel has not publicly protested the Egyptian move, but officials declined to comment Monday.

    The U.S., which has called the current border restrictions unsustainable, is among those pressing for changes. Vice President Joe Biden met Monday with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in the Red Sea resort of Sharm El-Sheikh.

    He released a statement afterward saying the U.S. is closely consulting with Egypt and other allies to find new ways to "address the humanitarian, economic, security, and political aspects of the situation in Gaza."

    In another escalation of the tension off Gaza's shores, Israeli naval forces shot and killed four men wearing wet suits off the coast on Monday. The militant group Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades said the men were members of its marine unit training for a mission.

    Egypt was not exactly a reluctant participant in imposing the blockade. Like Israel, Egypt watched with concern as Hamas militants wrenched control of Gaza from their rivals in the Fatah movement of Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas during bloody street battles in 2007.

    Egypt, which had its own war against Islamic radicals in the 1990s, fears sharing a border with a territory controlled by Islamic militants who have the backing of rising regional rival Iran. Just to the south, Egypt's Sinai peninsula has been the scene of major terrorist attacks against tourist hotels, the last one in 2006.

    Egypt paid a price for its part in the blockade, including protests at home against the government of Mubarak, who has been accused of being "an agent" for Israel. And in January 2008, Hamas militants blew up a section of the Gaza-Egypt border wall in an attempt to end the blockade, allowing hundreds of thousands of Gazans to pour into Egypt to stock up on supplies and visit friends and relatives they had not seen for years.

    It took 12 days for Egyptian forces to restore order and close the border.

    The May 31 flotilla raid, in which eight Turkish men and one dual American-Turkish citizen were killed, also seriously hurt Israel's relations with Turkey, which had been its closest ally in the Muslim world.

    In announcing the change in Egypt's position, a security official acknowledged his country was in a "continuously critical situation," and he said Israel was wrong to think the closure could pressure Hamas to meet a series of demands, including the release of an Israeli soldier, Gilad Schalit, who has held since 2006.

    "Israel still insists that the blockade is a pressure tool. It can release Schalit and force Hamas to stop resistance. ... On the contrary, it becomes more extremist," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

    Egypt's new measures constitute an incremental change rather than a radically different approach to the border closure, in part because Egypt does not want to end up bearing sole responsibility for large-scale Gaza aid operations.

    For the time being, Egypt is only allowing a restricted group of Gazans to leave the territory, including medical patients, students attending foreign universities and those with residency abroad. In nearly a week, thousands of Gazans have left and 500 tons of medical supplies were trucked in. It has done so before, sporadically and for a period limited to two or three days.

    Egypt will not transfer large cargo shipments or construction material because the border crossing is designed primarily for travelers, the security official said. One such convoy, organized by Egypt's Islamic opposition movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, was stopped Monday before it got close to the border.

    And while it eases movement at the crossing in the border town of Rafah, Egypt is intensifying its efforts to stop a thriving smuggling trade through hundreds of tunnels under the border. Those passages have been Gaza's key economic lifeline but have also been a pathway for weapons.

    Egypt late last year began building an underground, metal barrier to seal the smuggling tunnels, and the security official said Egypt hoped to finish that work in the next few months.

    "We have a constant security concern, because Iran has its aims. Hezbollah has its aims. Hamas has its aspirations and aims, and al-Qaida could very well be present in Sinai and Gaza," the official said.
    Iran's Red Crescent Society said Monday it was preparing by the end of the week to send three cargo ships and a plane with humanitarian supplies for Gaza in cooperation with Turkey.

    It was not clear if the ships would actually attempt to sail from Iran, in which case Egypt would most likely stop them at the Suez Canal. The Egyptian security official said he feared an Iranian ship heading to Gaza would only complicate efforts to ease the blockade.

    In any event, Israel said it would not allow the vessels to dock in Gaza.

    Israeli military officials said their navy is ready for all scenarios. Speaking on condition of anonymity according to military rules, they said if armed Iranian forces tried to enter Gaza, they would be repelled by force.

    Hamas welcomed the Egyptian border measures but said it hoped all Gazans would soon be able to travel freely without restrictions.

    "We have said since the first day that the blockade on Gaza will end, and we can see that on the ground right now. And we voice our hope that all other restrictions will be removed," Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said.

    Hamas tightly controls access to Rafah, and only travelers with the proper permits can reach the terminal.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has signaled in recent days that he is open to easing the blockade, but cannot allow ships to sail freely into Gaza's port, fearing weapons will reach Hamas militants. Netanyahu's spokesman, Mark Regev, said officials are considering various ideas but declined to elaborate.

    Israel currently allows through only basic humanitarian goods, but Regev said it is expanding the volume of items getting in and has initiated building projects when there is a third-party guarantor to make sure construction materials do not end up benefiting Hamas.


    Egypt: Gaza Blockade A Failure
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  15. #240
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Even secular Turkey?
    Yep. Sure thang.
    Only the good die young.........................
    bitches like me live forever!!!!!!!!!!!!

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