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Thread: Israel Attacks Unarmed Aid Flotilla in International Waters, Several Dead

  1. #211
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Sounds like targeted assassinations to me:


    Israel was tonight under pressure to allow an independent inquiry into its assault on the Gaza aid flotilla after autopsy results on the bodies of those killed, obtained by the Guardian, revealed they were peppered with 9mm bullets, many fired at close range.

    Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.

    The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

    The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill policy".

    He calculated that during the bloodiest part of the assault, Israeli commandos shot one person every minute. One man was fatally shot in the back of the head just two feet in front him and another was shot once between the eyes. He added that as well as the fatally wounded, 48 others were suffering from gunshot wounds and six activists remained missing, suggesting the death toll may increase.

    The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.

    "Given the very disturbing evidence which contradicts the line from the Israeli media and suggests that Israelis have been very selective in the way they have addressed this, there is now an overwhelming need for an international inquiry," said Andrew Slaughter MP, a member of the all party group on Britain and Palestine.

    Israel said tonight the number of bullets found in the bodies did not alter the fact that the soldiers were acting in self defence. "The only situation when a soldier shot was when it was a clearly a life-threatening situation," said a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in London. "Pulling the trigger quickly can result in a few bullets being in the same body, but does not change the fact they were in a life-threatening situation."

    Protesters from across the country will tomorrow march from Downing Street to the Israeli embassy to call for Israel to be held to account for its actions.

    Earlier this week, William Hague, the foreign secretary, said the government would call for an inquiry under international auspices if Israel refuses to establish an independent inquiry, including an international presence.

    The autopsy results were released as the last of the Turkish victims was buried.

    Dr Haluk Ince, the chairman of the council of forensic medicine in Istanbul, said that in only one case was there a single bullet wound, to the forehead from a distant shot, while every other victim suffered multiple wounds. "All [the bullets] were intact. This is important in a forensic context. When a bullet strikes another place it comes into the body deformed. If it directly comes into the body, the bullet is all intact."

    He added that all but one of the bullets retrieved from the bodies came from 9mm rounds. Of the other round, he said: "It was the first time we have seen this kind of material used in firearms. It was just a container including many types of pellets usually used in shotguns. It penetrated the head region in the temple and we found it intact in the brain."

    An unnamed Israeli commando, who purportedly led the raid on the Mavi Marmara, today told Israeli news website Ynet News that he shot at a protester who approached him with a knife. "I was in front of a number of people with knives and clubs," he said. "I cocked my weapon when I saw that one was coming towards me with a knife drawn and I fired once. Then another 20 people came at me from all directions and threw me down to the deck below

    "We knew they were peace activists. Though they wanted to break the Gaza blockade, we thought we'd encounter passive resistance, perhaps verbal resistance we didn't expect this. Everyone wanted to kill us. We encountered terrorists who wanted to kill us and we did everything we could to prevent unnecessary injury."

    Tonight the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel crewed by supporters of the Free Gaza movement, remained on course for Gaza. Yossi Gal, director general at the Israeli foreign ministry, said Israel had "no desire for a confrontation" but asked for the ship to dock at Ashdod, not Gaza.

    "If the ship decides to sail the port of Ashdod, then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it," he said.Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range | World news | The Guardian
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  2. #212
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    I was saying piss off in response to the article, not the person. I guess that didn't translate.

    Anyway, I think that the loss of life is horrible but still support more aid boats going and trying to break the blockade. Why? Because Gaza has been living under a blockade for several years and until last week no one really seemed bothered. Now, suddenly, people are talking and debating and questioning if it's right for the Israeli's to use collective punishment on an entire populace.
    ok, I reread it, and I can see how it could have been aimed at the posted info, and not the poster. Sorry I got it wrong-it did not look like it to me at first read. I apologize. I took it as an attack at the poster, and that was what upset me-that the give and take of the debate was giving way to 'personal attacks'.

    Looks like I was wrong, and the thread seems to be moving along without personal attacks and verifying that I was wrong-which is good actually.
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  3. #213
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Eh, Soj, when we get into these massive debates emotions run high so no harm done. I just feel like Israel is shooting itself in the foot and Ben N. is the worst thing that ever happened to that country. Hell, even Sharon realized that the oppression of the Palestinian population was not going to work but then the old asshole had a a stroke. And damn if he wasn't the ultimate hawk in Israel.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

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  4. #214
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    Eh, Soj, when we get into these massive debates emotions run high so no harm done. I just feel like Israel is shooting itself in the foot and Ben N. is the worst thing that ever happened to that country. Hell, even Sharon realized that the oppression of the Palestinian population was not going to work but then the old asshole had a a stroke. And damn if he wasn't the ultimate hawk in Israel.
    I still have kind of a crush on Bibi...always have..he was so hot back in the day.. *shame* I remember his brother being the only one who died in that Entebbe raid. Yeah I am old.

    I am beginning to think that a seperate Israel and a seperate Palestine state, with ..well..basically ethnic cleansing to make the populations in each area as homogenous as possible, and enforced by the UN(or someone) may be the only solution-as horrible as that sounds.

    Just like in Europe after WW2, boundaries were changed, and populations in the 'wrong' areas were turned into 'expellees'. East Prussians, Pomeranian Germans, Silesian Germans, Sudeten Germans, Poles in Russian/Ukrainian areas, Finns in areas taken over buy the USSR, etc.etc.etc.-forced at gunpoint into relocation. It was barbaric, but in a way it worked.

    but even then, you would have populations ever and anon wanting back the 'lost territories' ....

    There is no real solution.
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  5. #215
    Elite Member darksithbunny's Avatar
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    I dunno what can be done. It's kind of hard to make peace when the response from both sides is that they want each other annihilated off the earth. So sadly just moving to other places won't solve anything.

  6. #216
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darksithbunny View Post
    I dunno what can be done. It's kind of hard to make peace when the response from both sides is that they want each other annihilated off the earth. So sadly just moving to other places won't solve anything.
    Unless they are forced to move, and then threatened with annihilation if they do not just shut up and comply. But I agree that will never happen.

    and with Israel having Nukes, and Iran getting them, Pakistan having them(yeah, I bet they guard those things really well) it is probably just a matter of time before much of the Middle East is a nuked-out wasteland.
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  7. #217
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    I think the Palestinians were already forced to move once. Maybe it's time for the other side to move a little bit to the left.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

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  8. #218
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I sort of agree with Sojita on the population exchange. I heard that it happened with Greece and Turkey when Greece got its independence from the Ottoman Empire.

    One of the reasons that Israel will eventually have to let go of the West Bank is because, as fast as Israel colonizes the West Bank, they can't keep pace with the Palestinian's population growth. Which means, eventually, there will be more voting Palestinians in "greater Israel".

    And some Israelis are thinking about giving Palestinians something like a percentage of a Jewish Israeli's vote in order to counter this, which some people describe as a form of Apartheid.

    If Israel lets go of the West Bank, that would reduce the issue. If, however, Israel lets go of the West Bank and has some kind of population exchange with West Bank Palestinians, I think that you would eliminate the issue entirely. The problem is that you have too many zealots on either side. And it leaves aside the huge problem of East Jerusalem.

  9. #219
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Good luck getting the Israeli religious hardliners to go along with that. They're fucking batshit.
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  10. #220
    Elite Member ana-mish-ana's Avatar
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    I don't think the solution is going to be a 2 state country - too much crap has happened on both sides and the population demographics is definitely going to be a huge factor in the future. Whatever way you look at it the whole situation in Israel/Palestine is a huge fuckup and it will get worse.

  11. #221
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Isn't that the real issue that America arms Israel but not the Palestinians?

    So let's be fair. Arm both sides to the teeth and whoever survives gets to keep the barren wasteland. Fight to the death. We can all watch on pay per view.
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  12. #222
    Gold Member piperdiva's Avatar
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    Guys, Hamas is a terrorist organization. The PA is not. You really don't hear much about crap happening in the West Bank anymore. I think this two state thing could happen if the PA governed Gaza.
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  13. #223
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Helen Thomas just retired. The only impartial, honest reporter that asks the questions that need to be asked left in the US is gone.
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  14. #224
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piperdiva View Post
    Guys, Hamas is a terrorist organization. The PA is not. You really don't hear much about crap happening in the West Bank anymore. I think this two state thing could happen if the PA governed Gaza.
    The PA governed for decades and the 2 state thing was still rejected.

    Hamas, despite engaging in terror tactics (much like Israel itself, don't kid yourself) was fairly elected by the people.
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  15. #225
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    PA are collaborators, plain and simple.

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