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Thread: Israel Attacks Unarmed Aid Flotilla in International Waters, Several Dead

  1. #166
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    It's not offensive, it's a label. It's already been explained. It's a legitimate political ideology. It's basically the same as "right-wing jingoist fundie", but more polite.
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  2. #167
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Sorry, I didn't realize 1.5 million people was enough to warrant the term "holocaust". How about 600,000 gays? 200,000 Roma? 100,000 disabled?

    That would be genocide.

    Really? How interesting.

    AS a convoy of blue-and-white United Nations trucks loaded with food waited last night for Israeli permission to enter Gaza, Jindiya Abu Amra and her 12-year-old daughter went scrounging for the wild grass their family now lives on.

    “We had one meal today - khobbeizeh,” said Abu Amra, 43, showing the leaves of a plant that grows along the streets of Gaza. “Every day, I wake up and start looking for wood and plastic to burn for fuel and I beg. When I find nothing, we eat this grass.”


    Gaza families eat grass as Israel locks border - Times Online


    Pretty sure resorting to eating GRASS means starvation is happening. Also, the UN reports that only about half of the food needed in Gaza is being let through.

    IRIN Middle East | ISRAEL-OPT: Gaza food supplies strangled by 1,000-day blockade | Middle East | Israel OPT | Economy Food Security Health & Nutrition | News Item

    The fact that only half the food getting through is getting through shows that food IS getting through. It is terrible that she has to resort to eating grass sometimes to supplement when she cannot get other food. That is terrible. ButI do not see mass starvation of 1.5 million people in that thought. Have 1.5 million people died from starvation? Have 1.5 thousand even died of starvation?



    Israelites do not hold the copyright on the word or deed of "holocaust". Disabusing yourself of that notion would be the first thing you should do.
    No, I disagree. I think the term 'Holocaust' pretty much refers to what the Nazis did in World War Two, mainly to the Jews, and believe it was used in the context it was by the poster specifically because of that.
    They've been beating people over the head with that for 65 years to shield themselves. It doesn't work anymore.
    I agree that using the Holocaust as an excuse to conduct criminal offensives against supply/relief ships is wrong, but I do not see Israel doing that.
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  3. #168
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    It's not offensive, it's a label. It's already been explained. It's a legitimate political ideology. It's basically the same as "right-wing jingoist fundie", but more polite.
    You can say 'right wing jingoist fundie', but you can't call a board member that. It is against the rules. Why make it personal against the poster.

    (I admit at times it is hard to not do this). You know better than anyone how to 'skirt' the rules in that regard, I just don't know why you did not do that 'skirt the rules thing' this time.

    You can't go calling board members 'neocon repugs' either...but you can use the term of course.

    I just wish it had not gotten so personal against a poster.

    You (and others) destroyed what she had posted, well and good. That should have been all it took. The diatribe(not yours) was uncalled for.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  4. #169
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    That would be genocide.
    *sigh* The two terms are synonymous.

    The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος [holókaustos]: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew): השואה,[citation needed] Romanized ha'shoah; Yiddish: חורבן, Romanized churben or hurban[3] is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany.[4]


    The fact that only half the food getting through is getting through shows that food IS getting through. It is terrible that she has to resort to eating grass sometimes to supplement when she cannot get other food. That is terrible. ButI do not see mass starvation of 1.5 million people in that thought. Have 1.5 million people died from starvation? Have 1.5 thousand even died of starvation?
    Are you fucking serious? Half the food needed for people to survive is being locked out. That means half the people are starving to death. A minute ago you weren't even aware of any food being prevented from entering Gaza.

    Are you seriously defending this? How repulsive.

    No, I disagree. I think the term 'Holocaust' pretty much refers to what the Nazis did in World War Two, mainly to the Jews, and believe it was used in the context it was by the poster specifically because of that.
    See above.
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  5. #170
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    You can say 'right wing jingoist fundie', but you can't call a board member that. It is against the rules. Why make it personal against the poster.
    It's a label, not an attack. A label used after observation of drive by propaganda dropping.

    (I admit at times it is hard to not do this). You know better than anyone how to 'skirt' the rules in that regard, I just don't know why you did not do that 'skirt the rules thing' this time.
    I don't don't subscribe to your personal interpretation of the situation.

    You can't go calling board members 'neocon repugs' either...but you can use the term of course.
    Yes you can. It's a label referencing a political ideology. What part of that is escaping you.

    I just wish it had not gotten so personal against a poster.
    You're conflating what I said and what Butt said. Separate the two.

    You (and others) destroyed what she had posted, well and good. That should have been all it took. The diatribe(not yours) was uncalled for.[/QUOTE]
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  6. #171
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    *sigh* The two terms are synonymous.

    The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος [holókaustos]: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew): השואה,[citation needed] Romanized ha'shoah; Yiddish: חורבן, Romanized churben or hurban[3] is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany.[4]


    It is the term used to describe what happened in Europe in World War Two. Other genocides are 'genocides' 'Holocaust' specifically applies to this.

    Are you fucking serious? Half the food needed for people to survive is being locked out. That means half the people are starving to death. A minute ago you weren't even aware of any food being prevented from entering Gaza.

    Are you seriously defending this? How repulsive.

    I am not defending this, and your attempting to portray that I am is revolting and repugnant. Way to go and twist things Grimm.

    See above.
    I did, and you were still wrong.
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  7. #172
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    You were defending it, after you had been made aware that it was happening at all. You poo-pooed half the people starving as "not really that bad".

    So on one hand, you were ignorant of the situation at all, and then after you downplayed it.

    Nice.

    Not defending at all.

    p.s. "The word holocaust has been used since the 18th century to refer to the violent deaths of a large number of people.[13] For example, Winston Churchill and other contemporaneous writers used it before World War II to describe the Armenian Genocide of World War I.[14] Since the 1950s its use has increasingly been restricted, with its usage now mainly used as a proper noun to describe the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi Germany."

    so no.. no copyright
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  8. #173
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    It's a label, not an attack. A label used after observation of drive by propaganda dropping.

    bull
    I don't don't subscribe to your personal interpretation of the situation.

    I understand that.

    Yes you can. It's a label referencing a political ideology. What part of that is escaping you.

    No it is not-it is personal denigrating attack when directed at a board member. Read!.

    You're conflating what I said and what Butt said. Separate the two.
    I did-reread please
    You (and others) destroyed what she had posted, well and good. That should have been all it took. The diatribe(not yours) was uncalled for.
    [/QUOTE]

    I did say 'the diatribe' was not from you. But the personal things said to the poster were. You do not see them as slamming the poster themself, I do.

    If that's not a "it's not so bad" defense, wtf is?

    The fuck have you been smoking tonight

    don't misinterpret what I posted and put words in my mouth. If I meant to say, "It is not so bad' I would have said that. It IS bad, but it is NOT 1.5 million people dead from starvation.

    And you are apparently smoking the same "I can do what I want on the board and I am never wrong and am omniscient' stuff that you always smoke.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  9. #174
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    It's personally denigrating to afix a label denoting a particular political ideology to someone after they've demonstrated their orientation to said ideology?

    Well. I guess a duck isn't a duck either, even though it quacks and looks like one. A duck is now a Chuzwazza.


    Soj, it's 1/2 of 1.5 million people DYING from starvation, mostly children.

    Do some reading. A minute ago you weren't even aware, and I was.

    I'm not omnicient, but in this situation I'm more informed. That's not omnicience. It's information.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  10. #175
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    It's personally denigrating to afix a label denoting a particular political ideology to someone after they've demonstrated their orientation to said ideology?

    Well. I guess a duck isn't a duck either, even though it quacks and looks like one. A duck is now a Chuzwazza.


    Soj, it's 1/2 of 1.5 million people DYING from starvation, mostly children.

    Do some reading. A minute ago you weren't even aware, and I was.

    I'm not omnicient, but in this situation I'm more informed. That's not omnicience. It's information.
    I do not believe that 750,000 people are dying, have died, or will die there. I seriously do not believe this. I am not making this up, I do not believe it. I would believe that 750,000 people may not be getting enough food and nutrition to be healthy-but that is not starvation. It is a terrible deprivation. and it is definitely not a genocide or a "Holocaust".

    And it is apalling and the UN especially should be airlifting foodstuffs and such into there this minute and then let Israel try to do something about that. (yeah I know the US would block such UN actions. *sigh*

    I don't know why the US will not just lay down the goddamn law to Israel at least in the area of humanitarian concerns for these people, and it just pisses me off as well as the rest of you. The Palestinians are the true 'lost people of the world now, and they are just in a terrible situation.

    It is terribly ironic and horrible that the old 'lost and homeless/stateless' people of the world, the Jews, now have a state, and the creation of that state resulted in a new 'lost and homeless/stateless' people.

    And again, I do not support everything Israel does. The way things turned personal against a certain poster in this thread is what got to me, not the discussions, since I agree with much if not most of it, except for the most vitriolic and stuff.

    *If even 7,500 starvation deaths can be truly documented from this, I will donate $400.00 of my own money to a Palestinian refugee food fund, and offer my apologies and retract my statements with my tail between my legs. I just do not believe that 'mass starvation' is going on there.


    * have to go to bed..will be back tomorrow morning it anyone want to verbally pummel me..ok? goodnight all..
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  11. #176
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    I do not believe that 750,000 people are dying, have died, or will die there. I seriously do not believe this. I am not making this up, I do not believe it. I would believe that 750,000 people may not be getting enough food and nutrition to be healthy-but that is not starvation. It is a terrible deprivation. and it is definitely not a genocide or a "Holocaust".
    What you BELIEVE is largely irrelevant The REALITY is less than half the food 1.5 million people NEED (not want, NEED) is not getting in. That IS starvation. Either half the 1.5 million people are not eating at all, or everybody is eating but only getting HALF the daily requirement to survive. Hence eating grass.

    What do you think happened in concentration camps? Same thing. All that's missing is the hard labor.

    And it is apalling and the UN especially should be airlifting foodstuffs and such into there this minute and then let Israel try to do something about that. (yeah I know the US would block such UN actions. *sigh*
    Uh, Israel is blocking UN aid shipments at all checkpoints. Any aircraft in their airspace would be shot down instantly. The UN has roundly condemned the blockade but is unable to do anything, hence the blockade breaker ships being sent by aid groups.

    I don't know why the US will not just lay down the goddamn law to Israel at least in the area of humanitarian concerns for these people, and it just pisses me off as well as the rest of you. The Palestinians are the true 'lost people of the world now, and they are just in a terrible situation.
    The US refuses, the Israelis know that, and the Israelis have been getting away with literal murder for decades as a result.

    It is terribly ironic and horrible that the old 'lost and homeless/stateless' people of the world, the Jews, now have a state, and the creation of that state resulted in a new 'lost and homeless/stateless' people.
    The oppressed become the oppressor.

    And again, I do not support everything Israel does. The way things turned personal against a certain poster in this thread is what got to me, not the discussions, since I agree with much if not most of it, except for the most vitriolic and stuff.
    I don't deny their right to exist as a state, nor do I have anything against Israelis. I question their actions. Period.

    *If even 7,500 starvation deaths can be truly documented from this, I will donate $400.00 of my own money to a Palestinian refugee food fund, and offer my apologies and retract my statements with my tail between my legs. I just do not believe that 'mass starvation' is going on there.
    The internet is available. I wouldn't rely on anything the US media says, it's hideously skewed to be consistently pro Israel.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  12. #177
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    I dont stay around to discuss things because what's the point? You have your knowledge about what, where and why and thats it. There is no place for another point of view or different opinion.
    This thread is not about the pacts 10 pages of pure hate, you dont live here and see/feel/know how its REALY is. Gaza people are only one part from the Palestines people in Isearl. The situation with them are very different.
    You believe that everything that came from Israel is a lie so how came Egypt act the to the Hamas/Gaza? they also support Israel because of the bible or their skin color or any ridiculous reason like that?
    The things you see in the media and reality are 2 different things and after all that been said about Israel and the official diplomatic statements from all countries when its came to the bottom line everyone know who the Hamas is and maybe thats the reason that Israel will "get away" with that.
    Funny thing is the Jewish and Arabs who live is Israel get along better then pepole who dont live here think.

    And also there is NO starvation in Gaza none. never was never will be. Believe what you want but this is a pact No starvation and sick pepole who cant be treated in Gaza hospital are treated in Israel. Those 2 things happen in the worst times and will continued to happen no matter what.

  13. #178
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    What's the point? LOL

    You drop propaganda in, an hour later it's found to be totally fake, and you don't see anything amiss with that?

    Of course. Any criticism of an illegal and murderous boarding of NATO allied ships is "pure hate". To hell with the facts, it's just blind, irrational hatred? We're not angry that Israel committed an act of piracy outside of it's territory? We're not angry that they assaulted aid ships militarily and killed 9 people?

    We're just "hating" for no reason? Marie, what kind of argument is that. Really. It's about as solid as that youtube crap from the IDF that keeps turning out to be faked.

    What's next, gonna throw the "anti semitic" card too?

    Marie: everything the IDF has released about this situation HAS BEEN CONFIRMED AS A LIE. How do you respond to that? It can't simply be explained away or ignored. It's been faked, verified as fake. How can anybody take Israel at its word about this situation after that?

    It's becoming increasingly difficult for Israel to maintain any kind of benefit of the doubt when it does stupid shit like that.

    No starvation in Gaza, nevermind that 1/2 the food needed isn't getting through and that's from the UN's own report! How do you respond to that? Is the UN lying? Are the people eating grass doing it just because they like the taste?

    I look forward to you answering ANY of this with any kind of fact.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  14. #179
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    Have you ever been in Gaza? I was there in Gaza and near Gaza and im telling you there is food there and not just that the the cost is low , its cheaper to shop there.


    AP INTERVIEW: Turkish aid group had terror ties



    By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU, Associated Press Writer Alfred De Montesquiou, Associated Press Writer – Wed Jun 2, 5:51 pm ET
    PARIS – The Turkish Islamic behind a flotilla of aid ships that was raided by Israeli forces on its way to Gaza had ties to terrorism networks, including a 1999 al-Qaida plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, France's former top anti-terrorism judge said Wednesday.
    The Foundation and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.
    Bruguiere, who led the French judiciary's counterterrorism unit for nearly two decades before retiring in 2007, didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s.
    "They were basically helping al-Qaida when Osama bin Laden started to want to target U.S. soil," he said.
    Some members of an international terrorism cell known as the Fateh Kamel network then worked at the IHH, he said. Kamel, an Algerian-Canadian dual national, had ties to the nascent al-Qaida, Bruguiere said.
    Among Kamel's followers was Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian who was arrested in the U.S. state of Washington in December 1999 on his way to bomb Los Angeles International Airport as part of an al-Qaida plot.
    "IHH had a role in the organization that led to the plot," Bruguiere said, reiterating sworn testimony he made in a U.S. Federal Court during Ressam's trial. Ressam is serving a 22-year prison sentence.
    Bruguiere issued an international warrant for Kamel, Ressam's former mentor, who was extradited from Jordan to France in 1999 and sentenced to eight years in prison on terror-related .
    IHH vehemently denies ties to radical groups. The group is not among some 45 groups listed as terrorists by the U.S. State Department's Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism. Nine people on board the IHH flotilla were killed by Israeli forces on Monday.
    "We are a legal organization," IHH board member Omer Faruk Korkmaz said late Wednesday in response to Bruguiere's statements. "We have nothing to do with any]illegal [COLOR=#366388 !important]organization[/color][/color][/color]," he said.
    "We don't know Ahmed Ressam or Fateh Kamel," Korkmaz said. "We don't approve of the actions of any terrorist organization in the world."
    French investigators found in the 1990s that "several members of Fateh Kamel's network worked at the IHH as a cover," Bruguiere said. "It was too systematic and too widespread for the NGO (non-governmental organization) not to know" their real goal, he said.
    The former judge, renowned for tracking down convicted terrorist Carlos , said he didn't believe the IHH could have been infiltrated by terrorists without its knowledge.
    "It's hard to prove, but all elements of the investigation showed that part of the NGO served to hide jihad-type activities," Bruguiere said. "I'm convinced this was a clear strategy, known by IHH."
    The judge said he was personally involved in a raid with French and Turkish police at IHH headquarters in Istanbul in 1998, where they found weapons, false documents and other "incriminating" material.
    "It was clearly proven that some of the NGO's work was not charity, it was to provide a facade for moving funds, weapons and mujahedeen to and from Bosnia and Afghanistan" — areas focused on by Islamic militants then.
    In Istanbul, Korkmaz, of IHH, confirmed the late '90s police raid but denied that any weapons were found and said there was no evidence found of links to militancy.

    Bruguiere would not specify how many members of Kamel's terror cell worked at IHH or give their names, but he said one of the suspects, a man from Bosnia, appeared in another terror-related case as recently as 2005 — though there was no indication at the time that the man still had ties to IHH.
    Elements within the charity supported jihadi operations in the 1990s, Bruguiere said, before adding: "I don't know whether they continued to do so" more recently.
    "But it seemed clear at the time that it was thanks to a measure of political backing within the Turkish government that it (IHH) could continue to operate," despite the strong suspicions against it, Bruguiere said.
    Bruguiere retired from the judiciary in 2007 when he took part in an election to become a lawmaker in the conservative party of French President Nicolas Sarkozy. He lost his bid.
    Bruguiere, 67, is now the coordinator for the European in a terrorism finance tracking program jointly run with the United States.
    In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters on Wednesday that "we know that IHH representatives have met with senior Hamas officials in Turkey, Syria, and Gaza over the past three years. That is great concern ." But, he said the U.S. could not "validate" that IHH has connections to al Qaida.


    AP INTERVIEW: Turkish aid group had terror ties - Yahoo! News
    Last edited by marie; June 5th, 2010 at 12:32 AM.

  15. #180
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    *eyerolls as Marie continues to ignore everything posted*

    . Unemployment is at 44%

    • Eight out of 10 Gazans are dependent on aid

    • The number of people defined as the "abject poor" (unable to feed themselves or their families) has increased from 100,000 to 300,000 in past 12 months

    • GDP per capita fell from $2,500 (£1,718) in 1998/99 to $600 last year

    • An estimated 20,000 people work in the tunnels industry

    • Oxfam estimates that last week 631 trucks of carrying humanitarian supplies were permitted entry – 22% of the weekly average (2,807 truckloads) before Israel's blockade

    • Last week 871 tonnes of cooking gas reportedly entered Gaza, half of the normal weekly level

    • 1,063m litres of industrial fuel were delivered that week for Gaza's power plant – only 30% of the 3.5m litres needed weekly.


    What food there is that you find so cheap is out of range of a good portion of Gazans. They have no money to buy what there is because there are no jobs, no infrastructure.. they can't even rebuild schools.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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