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Thread: Gay pride marchers defy threat of violence in Jerusalem

  1. #16
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Well, playing devil's advocate here, Jerusalem is considered the holiest city for Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Thats why they all have been fighting over it for ages. Knowing that all three of these religions believe homosexuality goes against their God, I'm curious as to whether the choice to stage their gay pride parade in Jerusalem was a tactical move to push an agenda against the religious people there. I see it as kind of disrespectful, to be honest with you, although I know I will get beaten down for it. I think thats the one place where all the holy men have walked through generations, preaching their word. I think thats why theres such an outcry over choosing this particular place to have a gay pride parade. I don't know where I stand on this, I just wanted to throw out a different perspective (and probably get crucified for doing so!) I can understand having gay marches everywhere else, but yes, I can also understand why this doesn't sit well with a huge population of people.


    Edited to add: I just wanted to add that I am not anti-gay, or anything of the sort. I do not condone any kinds of attacks or threats used against anyone. But I really try to respect people from all walks of life. Knowing that Jerusalem is the holy land for millions of people, I personally wouldn't do anything that would defile it in their eyes, no matter how bizarre it may seem. Thats why I would never visit Jerusalem, I have no reason to. Because they want to keep that sacred. I know people will argue with me, and thats okay. I just wish that people from all walks of life could be respected, even if their views seem out of touch, or even crazy. The gay pride marchers had every right to march there, I just personally would have declined out of respect.
    Very true, it's not just a gay issue, it's also how society organizes itself. Maybe Grimm is arguing that society should be reorganized. But these are also regional differences, not just anti-gay.

  2. #17
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Well in deference to these 'holy men', us gays have been around just as long. I consider it disrespectful that they use their religion to oppress us, so I'm not too worried about hurting their precious feelings on the matter.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #18
    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamieElizabeth View Post
    I agree with you, that it might be 'environmental' or biological. I still don't understand this separative view in the US.
    Sorry about that, I didn't read your other post correctly.

    I think it's rather simple though, the fundies think it's wrong, so it has to be something other than natural, it has to be a choice.

  4. #19
    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    The gay pride marchers had every right to march there, I just personally would have declined out of respect.
    When has anything respectful happened on that little piece of land?

    All those sects have an agenda over there. Funny how they can agree on something though, isn't it. Religion has been telling who is and who isn't welcome there (or in certain parts) for centuries. Under Jordanian rule, Christians were only allowed to visit East Jerusalem during Christmas. Sheesh. So fucking accepting and shit.

  5. #20
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Born In A Brothel View Post
    Sorry about that, I didn't read your other post correctly.

    I think it's rather simple though, the fundies think it's wrong, so it has to be something other than natural, it has to be a choice.
    yeah, I agree with you that they've got it wrong. Obviously, we don't even know if this party is going to last after Bush!! The only place where I am getting stuck is difficult to express.

    If Fundies are mainly Christian. Don't you think that religion must be working in American, especially with the vast differences in people based apon their region?

  6. #21
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Well in deference to these 'holy men', us gays have been around just as long. I consider it disrespectful that they use their religion to oppress us, so I'm not too worried about hurting their precious feelings on the matter.

    I understand that, too. My only concern is that when a group wants to be respected, and in the process they do something that other people find disrespectful, it negates everything they're fighting for in the first place. The cause kind of gets lost. Does that make sense?
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

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    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    I think you're asking if their propoganda is working? I would hope not, to be honest I really don't know the statistics if people are becoming more accepting, my guess is they certainly are. We see changes all around us, things that would've been unheard of some 20 years ago.

    Just today while passing thru the neighborhood our pride fest will be hosted tomorrow, I noticed a big rainbow banner on one of the churches, We Are Proud To Welcome Everyone.


  8. #23
    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    I understand that, too. My only concern is that when a group wants to be respected, and in the process they do something that other people find disrespectful, it negates everything they're fighting for in the first place. The cause kind of gets lost. Does that make sense?
    Kinda like Rosa Parks not giving up her bus seat to the white man.

  9. #24
    Silver Member gardenofeve's Avatar
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    I understand that, too. My only concern is that when a group wants to be respected, and in the process they do something that other people find disrespectful, it negates everything they're fighting for in the first place. The cause kind of gets lost. Does that make sense?
    Kinda like Rosa Parks not giving up her bus seat to the white man.
    I'm glad, well kinda miffed that someone brought up this point before I got to. lol Gotta get quicker on the draw.

    Most change to make society into a more accepting and tolerant place starts with people standing up for themselves and not being "polite". The women who wanted the right to vote were certainly not "respectable", those blacks who wanted civil rights were "uppity", and now gays who simply want the right to be treated as human and not targetted for hate crimes are "disrespectful"?

    Oh and not all Christians dislike or condemn gays and lesbians. I belong to the largest protestant church in Canada and there is room for gays and lesbians not only to be members and be married, but to be our spiritual leaders if they feel so moved.

  10. #25
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    I understand all that and I am not rejecting it.

    What I am saying is this: religious people are obviously the ones who have the most problems against homosexuality. Knowing this, and really wanting to change the minds of religious people, to show what a loving and wonderful people gays can be, why would you choose the holiest place on earth - where most people are extremely nervous to set foot on, or defile in any way - to have your gay pride parade? I mean, you have to know that it would only create more hostility and not change anyone's minds. Thats all I'm saying. Look, it sucks that gay people sometimes have to take the higher road, I'm not saying otherwise. But to me, and only to me, it wasn't the smartest move. Does it suck? Yeah. But I really am just trying to state a different viewpoint here, I know it won't be accepted, but thats okay! This is what I am curious about - is the gay pride parade like, "hey fuck you all, I'm gay" or is it a way to show how great gay people are, so more people become tolerant? What do you want to achieve? Thats all I'm asking.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  11. #26
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Knowing this, and really wanting to change the minds of religious people, to show what a loving and wonderful people gays can be, why would you choose the holiest place on earth - where most people are extremely nervous to set foot on, or defile in any way - to have your gay pride parade?
    Because gays have been living in the holy land just as long. That's what they don't get. They think that they can define specific places for THEIR beliefs, when its a total crock.. all sorts have lived in every place.

    They will either be convinced peacably, or have it rammed down their throats. So far, they choose the latter.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    Oh and not all Christians dislike or condemn gays and lesbians. I belong to the largest protestant church in Canada and there is room for gays and lesbians not only to be members and be married, but to be our spiritual leaders if they feel so moved.
    ITA and it's largely the radical Christians (fundies) that have the problem.

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    Silver Member gardenofeve's Avatar
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    ITA and it's largely the radical Christians (fundies) that have the problem.
    Those people scare the hell out of me, and make it very difficult to be associated with organised religion, because the moment you say Christian, everyone's thoughts go straight to those whackos. If I'm just speaking to Canadians, I just say United Church and they automatically know. But with Americans it's a little tougher to explain.

  14. #29
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    While still wary of religion in general, it's nice to see a big sign on the front of a United church with a rainbow that says, "yes, you ARE very welcome here!"

    To me, that kind of church is what Jebus was talking about
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Silver Member gardenofeve's Avatar
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    Given that organised religion is a pretty scary thing I can't say I blame you. Heck even some United Churches can be scary, there are still some congregations while they call themselves United aren't exactly following the mandate of acceptance (A lot of them are in the prairies-are you surprised? lol)

    As I continued to grow spiritual, I really came to appreciate that the UCC was accepting of people normally turned away by other churches. While not lesbian, it certainly spoke to me as someone poor, on the fringe and brown. My congregation is pretty homogenous (pretty much old and wasp) now that I live in Scarberia, but it's really heartening to sit around and talk to 65+ yeard old people and be pleasantly surprised, and/or taken down a notch in my own stereotypes that they have truly taken the message of acceptance and learning to heart.

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