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Thread: Can a former IRA commander lead Ireland?

  1. #16
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    Well. I certainly don't support the IRA's methods of getting attention, I just said I understand where they're coming from. I also think its very hypocritical to point the finger all at the IRA and not acknowledge GB's part in all of it.
    FUCK YOU AND GIVE ME MY GODDAMN VENTI TWO PUMP LIGHT WHIP MOCHA YOU COCKSUCKING WHORE BEFORE I PUNCH YOU IN THE MOUTH. I just get unpleasant in my car. - Deej

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  2. #17
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    I think we can be sympathetic to a cause, and object to how a group may choose to further the cause at the same time. I feel that way about the IRA, Palestine, even 9/11. Did I think it was right to bomb the towers? No. But, do I get why some people want to attack the US? Yes.

    I've been reading a lot of the Irish newspapers on this election and McGuinness, and the different opinions of the Irish have been pretty interesting.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


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  3. #18
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    I think we can be sympathetic to a cause, and object to how a group may choose to further the cause at the same time. I feel that way about the IRA, Palestine, even 9/11. Did I think it was right to bomb the towers? No. But, do I get why some people want to attack the US? Yes.
    this.
    the IRA's cause may be just but their methods are abhorrent, and the british occupation doesn't make it any less so. same goes for palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists killing israeli civilians. or 9/11. i don't agree with a lot of the US' foreign policy but that doesn't mean flying planes into the twin towers was in any way justified.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  4. #19
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    I don't really get the why about 9/11, but then I can totally admit my ignorance about it. I avoid any news about it like the plague.
    FUCK YOU AND GIVE ME MY GODDAMN VENTI TWO PUMP LIGHT WHIP MOCHA YOU COCKSUCKING WHORE BEFORE I PUNCH YOU IN THE MOUTH. I just get unpleasant in my car. - Deej

    http://www.gossiprocks.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic4098_9.gif Healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

  5. #20
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Thank god those puerto ricans were so lazy. I remember some small FALN stuff when I was a kid, though Fraunces' Tavern was a pretty big deal at the time.

    There's great truth in the saying that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. There are people who supported the IRA, people who supported the 9/11 attacks, etc. It depends on your perspective.
    I probably could have phrased it better but FALN (Puerto Rican terrorist group) was anything but lazy. Supposedly, responsible for 120 bomb attacks in the United States between 1974 and 1983 if you can believe the Wikipedia entry.

    To elaborate further on the IRA, Irish Republicans had pretty much exhausted every measure, for many, many years, of gaining either independence or autonomy. First through parliamentary procedures, and then through outright rebellion, with the apex of that being the Easter Rising. Even though that led to a separate Republic, you still had a piece of Ireland (contiguous with the Irish Republic) essentially annexed by Britain and occupied by British citizens with demonstrably greater rights than Irish Catholics. It is a toxic brew that almost always results in further rebellion and insurrection. Added to that, you had British loyalists' own version of terrorists who targeted both IRA members and Catholic civilians alike.

  6. #21
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    ^ Yes, I'm fairly well versed in the history of the troubles. I can even sing The Foggy Dew word for word with great feeling if you'd care to hear it, or recite Padraig Pearse's The Wayfarer. ( I spent a lot of time in NY's Irish bars in my misspent youth) But the bombing of civilians will always repulse me, no matter the cause.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


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    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  7. #22
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    ^ Yes, I'm fairly well versed in the history of the troubles. I can even sing The Foggy Dew word for word with great feeling if you'd care to hear it, or recite Padraig Pearse's The Wayfarer. ( I spent a lot of time in NY's Irish bars in my misspent youth) But the bombing of civilians will always repulse me, no matter the cause.
    Of course. Reading about the endless retaliatory shootings and bombings of civilians during the troubles is sad and disgusting.

    But going back to my original point, if Menachem Begin, who presided over the Irgun when it blew up a hotel, killing over 90 civilians (including Jews), can later go on to become a head of state, then this guy McGuiness sure as hell can, too.

  8. #23
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Sure.The only difference is Begin won his war, while the IRA did not.


    There actually is quite a bit of opposition inside Ireland south of the border to McGuinness from what I'm reading. It's interesting stuff.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  9. #24
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Sure.The only difference is Begin won his war, while the IRA did not.
    The IRA has split enough times that you could kind of say that they won and they lost. The IRA was formed before the 1919 War of Independence and fought for an independent Ireland during that war. After they gained independence, the IRA split into a faction that supported the ensuing treaty (it could be argued that it wasn't a very big faction) and those who did not. If de Valera wasn't an out and out member or leader of the IRA he certainly was a supporter (and a leader of the Easter Rising) and eventually became the elected leader of the Irish Republic.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    There actually is quite a bit of opposition inside Ireland south of the border to McGuinness from what I'm reading. It's interesting stuff.
    I'll have to read up. This is the first I've heard of this guy.

    And I'm sorry if I'm coming across as argumentative. I know that you know all this stuff - I'm just putting it out there because we are discussing it in an open forum.

  10. #25
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    You aren't coming across as argumentative. We're just talking.

    But I would disagree about the IRA winning. I don't mean the 1921 actual IRA, but the resurrection of it that appeared in the 70's- the provos. The British are still in Northern Ireland, and the removal was their aim.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  11. #26
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    DUBLIN, Ireland -- A former commander of the outlawed 1 Irish Republican Army has created a political earthquake in Ireland by entering the campaign for president of the Irish Republic -- with an outside chance of success.

    Martin McGuinness, 2 currently deputy first minister in the Northern Ireland power-sharing executive, will contest the Oct. 27 election as a candidate for Sinn Fein, the only political party which operates on both sides of the border.

    McGuinness has never denied his membership in the 3 IRA, which was responsible for the death of 644 civilians during its three decade-long campaign of violence.
    1. The Irish Republican Army split in the 1970s, the 3-decade campaign was carried out by the Provisional IRA. Facts. They're important. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...epublican_Army
    2. So... everyone missed that he's currently an elected official to the British Parliament, even if he doesn't attend? No comment on that?
    3. Is that the figure sanitised for an American readership? Removing the women & children from the figures?

    The Troubles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Or, are they suggesting that the British Army killed the other 1200?
    Civilian 1855 Members of security forces (and reserves) 1123
    Responsible party No. Republican paramilitary groups 2057 Loyalist paramilitary groups 1019 British security forces 363 Persons unknown 82 Irish security forces 5 Total 3526
    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    I'm an IRA sympathizer, so I have no issues with this. But my opinion carries no weight, as I've never lived in GB, and probably never will.
    Actually as an American, your opinion carries a LOT of weight.
    US tax dollars helped the PIRA for a number of years; and I believe that the Irish-American societies gave money to support the cause as well.
    I can understand why peoples support causes in their homelands, as well as I can understand why peoples have emmigrated (coming from an immigrant family).
    What many Americans might not know is that many terrorist forces / freedom fighters were taught to shoot, trained & build bombs by the PIRA.

    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    Name one country that gained its independence without killing innocent civilians.
    Czech Republic. Someone had to say it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I don't support indiscriminate killing of civilians or political figures either, but it was a terrorist act to take over the country in the first place, deprive its citizens of full land rights, suppress their language, and allow hundreds of thousands of them to starve to death during the great famine. If they exist for 200 more years, the IRA will never kill as many British civilians as Britain killed Irish civilians.

    That being said, the focus should continue to be peaceful engagement and resolution of differences.
    You jest? Or would you like the real figures in a pie chart? Or are we only talking British civilians in Ireland (N or Eire)? And do they get double points for babies & children?

    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    Well. I certainly don't support the IRA's methods of getting attention, I just said I understand where they're coming from. I also think its very hypocritical to point the finger all at the IRA and not acknowledge GB's part in all of it.
    Vouch. I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    I don't really get the why about 9/11, but then I can totally admit my ignorance about it. I avoid any news about it like the plague.
    The cause or the IRA link to it?
    The latter I can help with, as it is alleged that the IRA trains other groups to build bombs.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Sure.The only difference is Begin won his war, while the IRA did not.

    There actually is quite a bit of opposition inside Ireland south of the border to McGuinness from what I'm reading. It's interesting stuff.
    I'm unsurprised that there is both opposition and support for this man or any other candidate. Its politics....

    And (unrelated to my other points), I have to admit that I admire the bravery of anyone willing to die for their cause, be them IRA, British Army or other revolutionaries/terrorists...

    My ex served in NI quite a few times, was blown up there etc etc many times during those years. He's opinion of them was that it was a job, there was no hatred, no resentment. It was an interesting conversation (for me).

    Non-specifically, those that support the PIRA, how do you feel about countries that the US occupies? How can you support that when you support the call for Ireland for the Irish? Just interested to see if you see the parallels.

    I find it interesting that the US has supported the PIRA with tax dollars, when its supporting a side against an allie, but none of this ever seems to be aired in public, not be the US or their media any way.


    ETA: The "remainder" of the PIRA in N Ireland is a bit of an issue. They are the drug dealers and the knee-cappers that will knee cap people from little misdomeaners or for not doing what they're told. That act like a 2nd force to keep people in line but the victims have no trial or right to reply. N Ireland had a very low crime rate for a long time due to the PIRA, but now its only as good as its 2nd in command....
    Last edited by Novice; September 28th, 2011 at 03:00 PM.
    Free Charmed.

  12. #27
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novice View Post
    Non-specifically, those that support the PIRA, how do you feel about countries that the US occupies? How can you support that when you support the call for Ireland for the Irish? Just interested to see if you see the parallels.

    Depends on what you mean by occupy? I fully support Puerto Rico and other territories having government representation. It is the ultimate in hypocrisy that one of the founding mottos of the U.S. is "No taxation without representation", yet PR, DC, and several other holdings have none.

    As far as war shit, you'll have to name specific theaters.

    And yes, the Czech Republic, I concede your point. But GB is FAR from having its hands clean as far as killing innocents, and has no room to point the finger at Ireland.

    And I have to agree with Mohandas, the Irish could NEVER equal GB's kill score. EVER.
    FUCK YOU AND GIVE ME MY GODDAMN VENTI TWO PUMP LIGHT WHIP MOCHA YOU COCKSUCKING WHORE BEFORE I PUNCH YOU IN THE MOUTH. I just get unpleasant in my car. - Deej

    http://www.gossiprocks.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic4098_9.gif Healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

  13. #28
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    And I have to agree with Mohandas, the Irish could NEVER equal GB's kill score. EVER.
    Even limiting it to Oliver Cromwell's era, they probably couldn't. As one historian (John Morill) said:
    Most Irish remember him [Cromwell] as the man responsible for the mass slaughter of civilians at Drogheda and Wexford and as the agent of the greatest episode of ethnic cleansing ever attempted in Western Europe as, within a decade, the percentage of land possessed by Catholics born in Ireland dropped from sixty to twenty. In a decade, the ownership of two-fifths of the land mass was transferred from several thousand Irish Catholic landowners to British Protestants.
    Or as another historian (Frances Stewart) said:
    "Faced with the prospect of an Irish alliance with Charles II, Cromwell carried out a series of massacres to subdue the Irish. Then, once Cromwell had returned to England, the English Commissary, General Henry Ireton, adopted a deliberate policy of crop burning and starvation, which was responsible for the majority of an estimated 600,000 deaths out of a total Irish population of 1,400,000."
    Or as Winston Churchill himself said:
    ...upon all of these Cromwell's record was a lasting bane. By an uncompleted process of terror, by an iniquitous land settlement, by the virtual proscription of the Catholic religion, by the bloody deeds already described, he cut new gulfs between the nations and the creeds. 'Hell or Connaught' were the terms he thrust upon the native inhabitants, and they for their part, across three hundred years, have used as their keenest expression of hatred 'The Curse of Cromwell on you.' ... Upon all of us there still lies 'the curse of Cromwell'."

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