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Thread: Burka ban would be 'un-British'‎

  1. #46
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Geez, there are some stereotypes in this thread! Women in Egypt are not scared for their lives or run down by male lynch mobs.
    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt's sexual harassment 'cancer'

    "Sexual harassment of women in Egypt is on the increase and observing Islamic dress code is no deterrent, according to a survey published this week.

    The Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights (ECWR) describes the problem as a social cancer and calls on the government to introduce legislation to curb it. "


    I am not Muslim, and wore what I would wear here in the U.S., walked the streets alone all the time, and never once encountered any form of male harassment or men trying to rape me!
    Well, if it didn't happen to you then i guess it doesn't happen at all?

    And I saw women with bikini tops on outside tourist spots, etc. The men there are incredibly kind, actually, I had a much better time there than what I have with some of the sick fucktard males here in the U.S. I lived there for three years, I came back in one full piece and not scarred for life.
    See above.

    Islam is more of a threat because it operates within the confines of government, and we have a separation of church and state (which sometimes seems blurry, especially nowadays). But on a micro individual level, Christians are much scarier than Muslims, in my personal opinion. I have been treated very kindly and compassionately by Muslims, and I'm a Christian. On the other hand, many Christians I have met scare the shit out of me! Muslims don't pressure you to convert or make you feel like shit for your personal choices, at least not in my experience.
    Except the ones yelling "death to americans/christians"

    Christians are much more judgmental. So it's always funny to me to see rampant bigotry against Muslims, especially when it's subtly fueled by Christian right wing groups. I think there is a lot of misconceptions about Muslims because of the oppressive regimes in the Middle East, usually that's all that people draw their impressions from unfortunately because I doubt that many "average Joes" have close relationships with many Muslim people here in the U.S. There is so much misinformation out there that it makes my head spin. It does seem acceptable as a group to hate Muslims, thankfully the fever pitch has gone done in the past few years but it's still there and it is scary.
    Uhhuh.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  2. #47
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Geez, there are some stereotypes in this thread! Women in Egypt are not scared for their lives or run down by male lynch mobs. I am not Muslim, and wore what I would wear here in the U.S., walked the streets alone all the time, and never once encountered any form of male harassment or men trying to rape me! And I saw women with bikini tops on outside tourist spots, etc. The men there are incredibly kind, actually, I had a much better time there than what I have with some of the sick fucktard males here in the U.S. I lived there for three years, I came back in one full piece and not scarred for life.
    A couple of articles on the subject:

    Copts battle everyone’s fight | Holy Post | National Post

    As a young Canadian Copt, I’ve enjoyed religious freedoms that Christians in Egypt can only dream about. In Canada, it can be difficult to imagine life where religious freedom does not apply to all religions. In Egypt, the minority Christian population, composed primarily of Coptic Orthodox people, experiences systemic discrimination and prejudice.


    The Coptic Orthodox Church — which has its roots in Egypt — is the largest Christian sect in the country, accounting for eight to 12 per cent of the population. With a smaller following in other Middle East countries and the Diaspora, there are 15 million believers worldwide.


    Egypt’s Coptic Christians endure abductions, forced marriages and conversions of young Coptic women, gross underrepresentation in government, and converts to the faith regularly suffer legal battles to receive necessary identity cards.

    Are Egyptians ready for equal rights regardless of religion? - Bikya Masr

    Many Egyptians believe that ElBaradei’s reforms would also include the removal of religion from identity cards, ending the application of Islamic family law to marriage and divorce processes for non-Muslims, the elimination of stumbling blocks discouraging religious minorities from constructing houses of worship and an end to anti-proselytization laws.

    In fact, many also believe that if the country had truly free and fair elections, the Muslim Brotherhood party – which rejects the notion of Christians and women running for the presidency – would be elected, bolstered by the conservative-leaning religious sentiments of the majority.

  3. #48
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Geez, there are some stereotypes in this thread! Women in Egypt are not scared for their lives or run down by male lynch mobs. I am not Muslim, and wore what I would wear here in the U.S., walked the streets alone all the time, and never once encountered any form of male harassment or men trying to rape me! And I saw women with bikini tops on outside tourist spots, etc. The men there are incredibly kind, actually, I had a much better time there than what I have with some of the sick fucktard males here in the U.S. I lived there for three years, I came back in one full piece and not scarred for life.

    Islam is more of a threat because it operates within the confines of government, and we have a separation of church and state (which sometimes seems blurry, especially nowadays). But on a micro individual level, Christians are much scarier than Muslims, in my personal opinion. I have been treated very kindly and compassionately by Muslims, and I'm a Christian. On the other hand, many Christians I have met scare the shit out of me! Muslims don't pressure you to convert or make you feel like shit for your personal choices, at least not in my experience. Christians are much more judgmental. So it's always funny to me to see rampant bigotry against Muslims, especially when it's subtly fueled by Christian right wing groups. I think there is a lot of misconceptions about Muslims because of the oppressive regimes in the Middle East, usually that's all that people draw their impressions from unfortunately because I doubt that many "average Joes" have close relationships with many Muslim people here in the U.S. There is so much misinformation out there that it makes my head spin. It does seem acceptable as a group to hate Muslims, thankfully the fever pitch has gone done in the past few years but it's still there and it is scary.
    Yes there is alot of bigotry and prejudice(I admit to my own here..working on it)

    But I would rather deal with Xian fundies who are rude to me, than other fundies who would cut my head off, throw me in prison, push a stone wall over on me, etc.

    And I admit I do not know the extent of muslim extremism as to what proportion of the various populations think and feel, especially about specific issues.

    I can just judge the extremism by the terrorism, the laws in effect, the things that occur.

    You just don't see the same extreme reactions as often. Yes we have abortion doctors attacked now and then, and I guess you could even consider the OC bombing, and Waco, but you just do not see the beheadings, the honor killings, the laws where woman cannot drive, cannot be outside in public with no male relative escorting them(Saudi Arabia, etc. not everywhere of course).

    And of course we are talking extremism here, and I realize that there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world, and what I am talking about does not reflect the majority.

    I think the Xian fundies have been as bad or worse historically, that is certain. And I agree that Xian fundamentalism is somewhat contained with government frameworks, whileMuslim fundamentalism is part of the governement framework in places-and of course the more the latter, the worse it is.

    Theocracies just suck, and I am sure a Xian fundie state would suck.

    I guess The Vatican City/State is one..and it sucks. Bunch of fuckers protecting pedo priests!

    I am tired and this is probably rambly and shitty as a post. Oh well. I hope you get the point.

    I think just about any extremism in religion is usually bad news.

  4. #49
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    I agree with what you are saying in terms of the past. But sharia law has guaranteed that Islam has not advanced at the speed of the rest of the world, places like Iran and Saudi Arabia are positively backwards. It's robbed its citizens of their freedom and humanity and all in the name of Islam. I've read the Koran and I can appreciate it, much like I can appreciate the teachings of Jesus. There is a message of peace, love, harmony - all of which have been perverted for personal cause, which is always the case in religious fundamentalism. The human rights violations in some areas of the Middle East are unbelievable. Lebanon, Egypt, and some parts of the U.A.E. are all wonderful to visit and stay but no one would want to immigrate even there permanently because of their screwed up governments. So how did Islam stop progressing at the macro level?

    Sumaya, you seem reasonably intelligent from your posts. Can I ask your reasons as to why you would choose to wear the niqab? And if you don't mind, can you tell us if you are Shia or Sunni, and where you are from originally? I may have missed some things in your previous post.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    But it is a nation that REQUIRES women to wear burkas/niqabs.. that's the catch.
    and? lol what are you on about? you asked a question in reference to my background I answered it. If you have a problem with the saudis take it up with them.
    Oh well, then all the men groping women in Egypt, hauling off their coverings and generally having their way with them are immediately forgiven. Argument fail
    *smacks forehead* in your own words "Argument fail."
     
    No, they huff gasoline out of plastic bags and drink too much. Good lord, get your minority issues right.
    I wonder if the drug problems of the natives has anything to do with the loss of land, culture and language. The herding of them into reservations compared to the third world and the residential schools they were forced to attend after being seperated from their parents, where they were molested and taught to hate themselves.
    ... and stopped somewhere around the 7th century while filthy Europe and rice paddy Asia overtook you.
    The middle east is a part of asia.
     
    I think it's hilarious that you choose to wear a symbol of oppression and mysogeny in a nation that grants you the freedom to make such a choice.
    and I find so uproariously funny that you cant get over the fact.
    it's like Jews voluntarily wearing a yellow star of david or gays sewing on pink triangles for fun
    .
    *smacks forehead again* the star of David forced upon the jews when they were herded into ghettos and then systematically annihalted them? *smacks forehead gain*
    Distance themselves from muslims? How ridiculous. They created a secular state because religious states are inherently tyrannical.
    they created a secular state to join the the Europeans and the E.U. Till the realized that they are saracens and will always be considered saracens.
    Religion belongs in houses of worship, not government.
    Sure.
    Again, back in the 7th century that was true. Then you stagnated as a result of religion and basically turned into backwards third world nations till Europeans came along and reintroduced a fraction of modernity.
    You said this already...
    You traded your values for religious tyranny.
    err the religious tyrants that in most cases are propped up and funded by your governments.

    That's ridiculous analogy, Germany lost the first world war and bankrupted itself doing it. Then instead of coming to terms with their own stupidity, they sought a scapegoat (jews, liberals), and endured a number of years of political instability in which right wing nuts fostered anarchy, all the while promising a return to stability. ZERO comparability with the Muslim world.
    My point wasnt that the Germans were right but that you always find extremist everywhere and it's is only when the people feel threatned and are upset with their current governments that they turn to such people because those people are willing to fight.
    .. and yet you choose to wear the very thing they force on other women. Ridiculous.
    You'll get over it.
     
    All of this smacks of entitled child who has no real idea what it all represents. Blech.
    Fine then. Be that way!

  6. #51
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    *gets popcorn*

    This is getting interesting.

    *waits for Grimm's responses*

    most of the responses to Grimm were just deflections of course. Not really responding...just deflecting.

  7. #52
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    A couple of articles on the subject:

    Copts battle everyone’s fight | Holy Post | National Post

    As a young Canadian Copt, I’ve enjoyed religious freedoms that Christians in Egypt can only dream about. In Canada, it can be difficult to imagine life where religious freedom does not apply to all religions. In Egypt, the minority Christian population, composed primarily of Coptic Orthodox people, experiences systemic discrimination and prejudice.


    The Coptic Orthodox Church — which has its roots in Egypt — is the largest Christian sect in the country, accounting for eight to 12 per cent of the population. With a smaller following in other Middle East countries and the Diaspora, there are 15 million believers worldwide.


    Egypt’s Coptic Christians endure abductions, forced marriages and conversions of young Coptic women, gross underrepresentation in government, and converts to the faith regularly suffer legal battles to receive necessary identity cards.

    Are Egyptians ready for equal rights regardless of religion? - Bikya Masr

    Many Egyptians believe that ElBaradei’s reforms would also include the removal of religion from identity cards, ending the application of Islamic family law to marriage and divorce processes for non-Muslims, the elimination of stumbling blocks discouraging religious minorities from constructing houses of worship and an end to anti-proselytization laws.

    In fact, many also believe that if the country had truly free and fair elections, the Muslim Brotherhood party – which rejects the notion of Christians and women running for the presidency – would be elected, bolstered by the conservative-leaning religious sentiments of the majority.
    Yes, but I'm not sure if I agree with this. While I lived there for three years as a Christian, I brought my own prejudices and misconceptions with me that were soon erased. I went to church there, a non-denominational one since I am not coptic christian. It was a lovely experience. I had friends of both Coptic Christians and Muslims and in all of our discussions, no Coptic Christians told me they felt somehow oppressed there. Does it happen occasionally? Perhaps. I do know that it is harder to get permits to build churches, takes longer, but they still get pushed through. There was an abundance of churches I could have attended. My Muslim guy friends brought me a lovely Christmas tree with a box full of Christmas ornaments from the store because I couldn't carry it. You would think if Christians were so harassed and oppressed Christmas trees and decor wouldn't be sold in shops there. I also think that Christians here in the U.S. (and evidently Canada) love to talk about the persecution of Christians and what better way than to say how Egypt oppresses all the Christians there than to make people cry over the poor plight of the Christians and the big bad Muslims. Articles like this aren't surprising.

    I do think that the Muslim Brotherhood would be in danger of taking over Egypt if elections were in fact "free and fair." Egypt doesn't have much of a middle class, if any at all. The lower class often lives in extreme poverty and often can't even read or write. They are easily manipulated by the Muslim Brotherhood, who sets up charities in the poor neighborhoods and tries to give them a voice, and tells them they care. They're used as pawns. The Muslim Brotherhood is often despised by the upper class, for a myriad of good reasons, but the upper class is so disillusioned that they don't even vote. Voting is compulsory, but no one does it. So yes, the lower classes tend to be extremely religious and conservative, and manipulated by the Muslim Brotherhood - very scary stuff.

    Grimm, I have no doubt that rapes/assaults happen in Egypt in the poorer, less educated neighborhoods. I wouldn't have walked on those streets anyway, just like I wouldn't have walked down streets in New York by myself late at night either. I'm not saying Egypt is pristine, I'm saying that you surely don't have to be afraid, you just have to be aware of your surroundings and where you are, that's just common sense. When I started walking in areas that looked a bit more rundown, I usually changed directions. I walked to and from work almost every day, I had to walk about twelve blocks just for that and another eight to get to the grocery store, etc. I assure you that if my husband thought somehow I'd be harassed/raped he never would have let me out the door! Just exercise common sense. It's the same here in the U.S., women just have to be vigilant wherever they are. I really, really hate that there is some sort of misconception that you have to dress a certain way, or not be by yourself, because males in Egypt just can't help themselves and will rape you. Come on.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    I agree with what you are saying in terms of the past. But sharia law has guaranteed that Islam has not advanced at the speed of the rest of the world, places like Iran and Saudi Arabia are positively backwards. It's robbed its citizens of their freedom and humanity and all in the name of Islam. I've read the Koran and I can appreciate it, much like I can appreciate the teachings of Jesus. There is a message of peace, love, harmony - all of which have been perverted for personal cause, which is always the case in religious fundamentalism. The human rights violations in some areas of the Middle East are unbelievable. Lebanon, Egypt, and some parts of the U.A.E. are all wonderful to visit and stay but no one would want to immigrate even there permanently because of their screwed up governments. So how did Islam stop progressing at the macro level?
    Because we stopped following it right. The people in the muslim world are so concerned about the personal lives of others that they can grasp things on a larger scale. What are you doing? Who is that man? is he your brother? how about you mind your own business. The conduct in the muslim world is a reflection of people mixing culture and religion.
    Sumaya, you seem reasonably intelligent from your posts. Can I ask your reasons as to why you would choose to wear the niqab? And if you don't mind, can you tell us if you are Shia or Sunni, and where you are from originally? I may have missed some things in your previous post.
    I'm a sunni. I chose to wear the hijab because it is perscribed in my faith and I chose to wear the niqab so that I may not be judged by my appearance simple as that. That may come across as extreme but I like it.

  9. #54
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    I'm a sunni. I chose to wear the hijab because it is perscribed in my faith and I chose to wear the niqab so that I may not be judged by my appearance simple as that. That may come across as extreme but I like it.
    So, not to put words in your mouth, but you wear the niqab because you are self-conscious about the way you look? I'm not being condescending here, I'm simply curious. Thank you for answering my questions.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Why did you begin? As a political statement?

    Did not see your post but I answered to January and rest assured many will start to wear the niqab as a political statement.
    I have. Not often but I've seen a full burka more than once, including gloves on the hands.
    Where was that?

  11. #56
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    Yes there is alot of bigotry and prejudice(I admit to my own here..working on it)

    But I would rather deal with Xian fundies who are rude to me, than other fundies who would cut my head off, throw me in prison, push a stone wall over on me, etc.

    And of course we are talking extremism here, and I realize that there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world, and what I am talking about does not reflect the majority.

    I think the Xian fundies have been as bad or worse historically, that is certain. And I agree that Xian fundamentalism is somewhat contained with government frameworks, whileMuslim fundamentalism is part of the governement framework in places-and of course the more the latter, the worse it is.

    Theocracies just suck, and I am sure a Xian fundie state would suck.

    I guess The Vatican City/State is one..and it sucks. Bunch of fuckers protecting pedo priests!

    I am tired and this is probably rambly and shitty as a post. Oh well. I hope you get the point.

    I think just about any extremism in religion is usually bad news.
    I think we can both agree that extremism is terrible! I get your points. I really appreciate the fact too that you have been willing to look at your own prejudices, I am not saying this in a condescending way but in a warm way. It says a lot about your character, I'm working on that myself. I try to see everything from every perspective, but I definitely haven't perfected the art yet! I've learned a lot from you though, and even when we don't agree, I like to read what you have to say!
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    Did not see your post but I answered to January and rest assured many will start to wear the niqab as a political statement.
    If many are wearing the niqab as a political statement, then they cannot hide behind the canard that is worn for religious purposes.

    Ataturk was very aware that it's a political statement- not a religious one, and al-Assad recognizes that as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by sumaya View Post
    Where was that?
    In NYC. Although I have travelled to many muslim majority countries, and seen the differences between them.
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    Elite Member Sarzy's Avatar
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    My friend went on holiday to Egypt and was harassed by some men there -and she was with her boyfriend! But obviously, it should go without saying that they're not all like that. There are bad seeds everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    So, not to put words in your mouth, but you wear the niqab because you are self-conscious about the way you look? I'm not being condescending here, I'm simply curious. Thank you for answering my questions.
    No worries. I'm not self concious about the way I look anymore than the next person. In answer to your question it is to be free of dictates of society of how I am supposed to look and the objectification of women in the society I was raised which is the west and that may seem like a contradiction because the veil and the hijab being forced upon muslim women in certain societies but on a purely theological basis it is between me and God. Men should have no right to force it upon women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    I think we can both agree that extremism is terrible! I get your points. I really appreciate the fact too that you have been willing to look at your own prejudices, I am not saying this in a condescending way but in a warm way. It says a lot about your character, I'm working on that myself. I try to see everything from every perspective, but I definitely haven't perfected the art yet! I've learned a lot from you though, and even when we don't agree, I like to read what you have to say!
    I am just against religious extremism, especially when it is not contained with a governmental framework or exists in an arena where there are no checks and balances, and I have gotten that mixed up with religious faith at times, especially concerning Islam.

    All you have to do is look at some of the 'Christian' nations in Africa and other places(like Jamaica) and look at the extreme homophobia that is a reflection of (what I consider to be) Xian religious extremism to see that the worst kinds of extremist acts are not just confined to Muslim nations. And of course this is not just reflected in homophobia, although I tend to focus more on that I guess.

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