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Thread: Burka ban would be 'un-British'‎

  1. #31
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^
    hey, catholicism feels exactly the same way about women. all major religions do. the difference is that in the west, since the birth of humanism and the enlightenment there has been a gradual march toward separation of church and state, whereas in the muslim world the opposite is happening. countries that were once secular or on their way to becoming so are seeing a resurgence in militant, fundamentalist islam. in egypt and turkey and morocco 20 years ago it was rare to see a veiled woman in major cities and now it is commonplace.
    so it's not islam per se i dislike. it's what all religions have to say about women, and most importantly it is the influence of religion on public life. in the case of islam, this new resurgence of fundamentalism and the increase in women wearing the veil encroaching on women's rights by making it seem like covering up is a choice. but how can it be a choice when a garment (or lack thereof) is such a powerful symbol? because really this is what is implied:a devout muslim woman covers up, an uncovered woman is therefore the opposite of devout, i.e. 'impure'... so then the woman covers up as a way to show how devout she is, to prove she's not impure, convinced she is doing it of her own free will...
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  2. #32
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    I have absolutely zero qualms about the hijab, Sumaya. It's the niqab and the burka that robs women of their identities and is oppressive. Every moderate Muslim I know agrees, and I am happy to report that all the Muslims I know are moderate. I have beautiful friends that wear the hijab and I have no doubts, none whatsoever, that it is a personal choice of theirs and wasn't imposed on them - although I'm sure that can happen as well in different families, few and far between. All of those women are extremely strong and very educated, none of them are bound to a fundamentalist man and would never be. But any woman who chooses to cover her face is either threatened to do it or manipulated into thinking it is their only way to prove their devotion to Allah. My mother-in-law (who wears a hijab, she started wearing one when she was 50) gets extremely emotional when she sees any woman wearing the niqab, it both angers and saddens her. Thankfully it is rare, despite the western media sensationalizing it - but it does need to be eradicated. I'm not sure if it needs to be through this means, I would prefer to see certain cultures shift to be more progressive but I'm not sure that will happen anytime soon. I'm not really sure what you are describing in terms of "Islamic clothing" - the Koran doesn't demand of you to be veiled, all it states is that both men and women should be modest.
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  3. #33
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    huh? This is more like it. If you do not like Islam just say it like it is do not act like you have my well being at heart at least i'll know where you stand! and frankly my main problem with you cyber crusaders is your inability to understand that you do not represent me. We are competent and educated women we can speak for ourselves, dwell on that before you people decide that we need you to speak for us like we're incapable of speaking for ourselves. As to your question I will not waste my energies explaining Islam to you it seems like you already have your mind made up. But if you choose to approach your queries with an open mind than google would be a great place to start.
    ciao
    Nice dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    Did not see your question but in answer I was born in america but spent a great deal of my life in both Egypt and Lebanon and I did not start to wear Islamic clothing until after 9/11 both here and in Egypt/Lebanon.
    Lebanon doesn't count.. out of all the middle eastern countries it's fairly advanced until the Israelis bomb it back to the stone age every 20 years or so.

    There were no men with red eyes foaming at the mouth calling for my death neither was I assaulted.
    So all the women complaining about sexual harassment and assault from men every day in Egypt don't exist?

    Seriously some of the comments on this forum. Do you people live in a bubble.
    No, but it appears you do.

    lol like there's some man waiting to jump out of the bushes to stone me to death.
    Take a walk in Saudi Arabia in some jeans and get back to us... or drive a car. That should do it.

    Do you also think we still ride camels, live in tents and have harems?
    ... sure, if you live in the deep desert of a Wadi or something, or are a Bedouin.

    If you dont mind my asking because judging by your previous posts you are Canadian. How did you manage to get a landline into your igloo? I'll be waiting for your answer.
    We had landlines in our igloos before you had managed to carve electric generators out of cacti.
    Last edited by Tati; July 20th, 2010 at 08:09 AM.
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  4. #34
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    Did not see your question but in answer I was born in america but spent a great deal of my life in both Egypt and Lebanon and I did not start to wear Islamic clothing until after 9/11 both here and in Egypt/Lebanon. There were no men with red eyes foaming at the mouth calling for my death neither was I assaulted. Seriously some of the comments on this forum. Do you people live in a bubble. lol like there's some man waiting to jump out of the bushes to stone me to death. Do you also think we still ride camels, live in tents and have harems?
    If you dont mind my asking because judging by your previous posts you are Canadian. How did you manage to get a landline into your igloo? I'll be waiting for your answer.
    and where are my other posts?
    You can wear a burka, but only if it is like this:



    and France should make an exception for these too!

    Sumaya I am going to have one made like this ...and parade around in it in public to make fun of it(the burka) since as has been mentioned many times in this thread it is worn by women who for the most part wear it out of fear or some misguided beliefs bullied into them by men, with said beliefs really having nothing to do with the Koran or Islam at all, but being just the same old misogynistic bullshit that has existed for eons packaged up by men and presented in the forms of 'faith' and 'religion'.

    The excesses of misogyny of extremist Islam do not have to even be repeated here: everyone is familiar with the excesses.

    And I hope to get several made eventually and start up a little fun group called 'The Pink Sparkly Burka Brigade' and do dances and skits and stuff with youtube videos and the whole nine yards of pink flowing cloth!
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  5. #35
    Gold Member BlameItOnVanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    I did not start to wear Islamic clothing until after 9/11 both here and in Egypt/Lebanon

    This to me is very interesting. In the years following 9/11 I've personally seen a rapid increase in the number of women and men adhering to a stricter form of Islam. Not just that but its seems to have taken on a real 'political' nature, if that makes sense.

    To me the Christian religious right in the USA is just as dangerous as the more extreme forms of Islam. They need to be watched and clamped down on but from what I see in that just isn't happening, I get the impression that they are reasonably strong in US society. Its ironic that they are so against one another when they are really cut from the same cloth.

  6. #36
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlameItOnVanity View Post
    This to me is very interesting. In the years following 9/11 I've personally seen a rapid increase in the number of women and men adhering to a stricter form of Islam. Not just that but its seems to have taken on a real 'political' nature, if that makes sense.

    To me the Christian religious right in the USA is just as dangerous as the more extreme forms of Islam. They need to be watched and clamped down on but from what I see in that just isn't happening, I get the impression that they are reasonably strong in US society. Its ironic that they are so against one another when they are really cut from the same cloth.
    Bullshit. The 'Christian religious right', as bad as it is, is in no shape or form anywhere near the extreme forms of Islam. Get your head out of..well..let's just say the sand...

    The religious right in the US still has to operate within the confines of a Consitutional Republic with a history of (mostly) Democratic government for over 200 years. Many of these Islamic extremists ARE the governments of certain theocracies.

    There is no real sane comparison of the effects of these Christian groups on life in the US, as compared to the effect that ruling radical extremist Islam has had on other nations..

    ten thousand murdered gays and lesbians in Iran since 1980? Stonings, beheadings, other religions banned or severely persecuted, mass terrorism, murder, etc. etc.

    So Afghanistan under the Taliban is comparable to the United States with Christian Conservatives? Yeah right.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  7. #37
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Soj, you know the Christofascists would do it if they could get away with it. Only the legal framework of the US keeps them from doing it.. aside from bashings.. abortion clinic bombings... running for vice president...

    .. and unfortunately that legal framework is being chipped away at quite steadily by the freaks, aided and abetted by the spineless losers in congress and the right wing nuts there that support them.

    Hell, habeas corpus is already out the window, you're spied on with no legal recourse and the president can order your assassination any time he likes.

    The difference is becoming smaller by the day.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Nice dodge.
    Lebanon doesn't count.. out of all the middle eastern countries it's fairly advanced until the Israelis bomb it back to the stone age every 20 years or so.
    So all the women complaining about sexual harassment and assault from men every day in Egypt don't exist?
    No, but it appears you do.
    Take a walk in Saudi Arabia in some jeans and get back to us... or drive a car. That should do it.
    ... sure, if you live in the deep desert of a Wadi or something, or are a Bedouin.We had landlines in our igloos before you had managed to carve electric generators out of cacti.
    You asked me to take a walk in the countries of my background that was my answer. Don't dodge the answer because it didnt validate your arguement. I'm not from Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia is just one muslim country neither do they or their form of Islam represent all muslims.
    Women complain about sexual harrasment everywhere. Isnt there a problem with sex crimes against native women and nobody taking it seriously in Canada. Seriously!
    We muslims made advancements in science, medicine, astronomy, alchemy, mathametics and the arts in Islamic world before Canada came to existence! *snap* (this isnt beer it's root beer).

    Sojita- I do not wear a Burka neither have I seen any muslim women wear it outside of Afghanistan.
    I have absolutely zero qualms about the hijab, Sumaya. It's the niqab and the burka that robs women of their identities and is oppressive. Every moderate Muslim I know agrees, and I am happy to report that all the Muslims I know are moderate. I have beautiful friends that wear the hijab and I have no doubts, none whatsoever, that it is a personal choice of theirs and wasn't imposed on them - although I'm sure that can happen as well in different families, few and far between. All of those women are extremely strong and very educated, none of them are bound to a fundamentalist man and would never be. But any woman who chooses to cover her face is either threatened to do it or manipulated into thinking it is their only way to prove their devotion to Allah. My mother-in-law (who wears a hijab, she started wearing one when she was 50) gets extremely emotional when she sees any woman wearing the niqab, it both angers and saddens her. Thankfully it is rare, despite the western media sensationalizing it - but it does need to be eradicated. I'm not sure if it needs to be through this means, I would prefer to see certain cultures shift to be more progressive but I'm not sure that will happen anytime soon. I'm not really sure what you are describing in terms of "Islamic clothing" - the Koran doesn't demand of you to be veiled, all it states is that both men and women should be modest.
    January you may see the niqab or burka as oppressive and you are right that many muslims dont agree with it but it all comes down to what school of thought you follow and some do see it as compulsory. I do not follow the schools of thought that see it as compulsory but I chose to wear it. It was my choice. My mother doesnt like it either because she doesnt like Saudi arabia.

    hey, catholicism feels exactly the same way about women. all major religions do. the difference is that in the west, since the birth of humanism and the enlightenment there has been a gradual march toward separation of church and state, whereas in the muslim world the opposite is happening. countries that were once secular or on their way to becoming so are seeing a resurgence in militant, fundamentalist islam. in egypt and turkey and morocco 20 years ago it was rare to see a veiled woman in major cities and now it is commonplace.
    so it's not islam per se i dislike. it's what all religions have to say about women, and most importantly it is the influence of religion on public life. in the case of islam, this new resurgence of fundamentalism and the increase in women wearing the veil encroaching on women's rights by making it seem like covering up is a choice. but how can it be a choice when a garment (or lack thereof) is such a powerful symbol? because really this is what is implied:a devout muslim woman covers up, an uncovered woman is therefore the opposite of devout, i.e. 'impure'... so then the woman covers up as a way to show how devout she is, to prove she's not impure, convinced she is doing it of her own free will...
    Sputnik Turkey along with many other muslim countries have done just about everything under the sun to distance themselves from muslims only to be consistently rejected by the west and christian Europe and now turkey is once again turning back to the muslim world.The muslim world was once very powerful and had all the things that west sees as necessary like freedom of religion, tolerance and the rights of women. We were also advanced in sciences when just about every group of people were still living in the dark ages. Islam when practiced the proper way brought this all about. The islamic golden age is testament to that.
    We as muslims have gone backwards as opposed to forwards as we've abandoned our values to be accepted by others. With leaders all over the muslim world bowing down to western hegemony while their people are poor and starving you can understand why people turn to more reactionary people, people who are willing to fight. It happened in Germany with the Nazi's.
    The last part of your post is too chicken and the eggish i'll get a migraine thinking about it. Theoritically the Quran tells both men and women to be modest but nowhere does it state that we MUST cover up so those that force it upon women are wrong. I'm assuming your not theist and don't believe in the hereafter but in Islam we are given free will and will be judged in the next life for the choices we make.

  9. #39
    Gold Member BlameItOnVanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    Bullshit. The 'Christian religious right', as bad as it is, is in no shape or form anywhere near the extreme forms of Islam. Get your head out of..well..let's just say the sand...

    The religious right in the US still has to operate within the confines of a Consitutional Republic with a history of (mostly) Democratic government for over 200 years. Many of these Islamic extremists ARE the governments of certain theocracies.

    There is no real sane comparison of the effects of these Christian groups on life in the US, as compared to the effect that ruling radical extremist Islam has had on other nations..

    ten thousand murdered gays and lesbians in Iran since 1980? Stonings, beheadings, other religions banned or severely persecuted, mass terrorism, murder, etc. etc.

    So Afghanistan under the Taliban is comparable to the United States with Christian Conservatives? Yeah right.
    I don't need to get my head out of the sand.. I am fully aware of the dangers of Islamic extremist and I see the burqa as a representation of an increasing level of fundamentalism, no denial about that.
    Maybe you need to get your head out of the sand about the christian conservatism in the USA, they might not have widespread power yet.. but seems like they are getting there

  10. #40
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    You asked me to take a walk in the countries of my background that was my answer. Don't dodge the answer because it didnt validate your arguement. I'm not from Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia is just one muslim country neither do they or their form of Islam represent all muslims.
    Saudi Arabia is just one country, but it's the cradle of Islam and sponsors many, many salafist version of the Koran that get sent outside of its country. Not to mention funding mosques outside of its country, so there is a concern about the way Islam is practiced in Saudi Arabia and its portents for muslim women around the globe.

    And Iran, a much larger and more populous country, has jump-out squads from the Ministry to Protect Virtue and Prevent Vice, ready to beat a woman for showing too much flesh with the way they are dressed.

    January you may see the niqab or burka as oppressive and you are right that many muslims dont agree with it but it all comes down to what school of thought you follow and some do see it as compulsory. I do not follow the schools of thought that see it as compulsory but I chose to wear it. It was my choice. My mother doesnt like it either because she doesnt like Saudi arabia.
    It's oppressive for the very reason that men are not advised or compelled to wear them.

    The muslim world was once very powerful and had all the things that west sees as necessary like freedom of religion, tolerance and the rights of women. We were also advanced in sciences when just about every group of people were still living in the dark ages. Islam when practiced the proper way brought this all about. The islamic golden age is testament to that.
    I think it is pretty arguable whether Islam was tolerant during its golden age, which was about 600 or more years ago.

    We as muslims have gone backwards as opposed to forwards as we've abandoned our values to be accepted by others. With leaders all over the muslim world bowing down to western hegemony while their people are poor and starving you can understand why people turn to more reactionary people, people who are willing to fight. It happened in Germany with the Nazi's.
    Going back to the golden age, you had muslim hegemony. Muslim armies occuping the Balkans, Greece, Spain, and invading parts of France. Besieging other parts of Eastern Europe. I don't think a lot of non-Muslims would like to go back to that period.

  11. #41
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    You asked me to take a walk in the countries of my background that was my answer. Don't dodge the answer because it didnt validate your arguement. I'm not from Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia is just one muslim country neither do they or their form of Islam represent all muslims.
    But it is a nation that REQUIRES women to wear burkas/niqabs.. that's the catch.

    Women complain about sexual harrasment everywhere.
    Oh well, then all the men groping women in Egypt, hauling off their coverings and generally having their way with them are immediately forgiven.

    Argument fail.

    Isnt there a problem with sex crimes against native women and nobody taking it seriously in Canada. Seriously!
    No, they huff gasoline out of plastic bags and drink too much. Good lord, get your minority issues right.

    We muslims made advancements in science, medicine, astronomy, alchemy, mathametics and the arts in Islamic world before Canada came to existence! *snap* (this isnt beer it's root beer).
    ... and stopped somewhere around the 7th century while filthy Europe and rice paddy Asia overtook you.

    Sojita- I do not wear a Burka neither have I seen any muslim women wear it outside of Afghanistan.
    Burka, Niqab, it does the same thing.

    January you may see the niqab or burka as oppressive and you are right that many muslims dont agree with it but it all comes down to what school of thought you follow and some do see it as compulsory. I do not follow the schools of thought that see it as compulsory but I chose to wear it. It was my choice. My mother doesnt like it either because she doesnt like Saudi arabia.
    I think it's hilarious that you choose to wear a symbol of oppression and mysogeny in a nation that grants you the freedom to make such a choice.

    it's like Jews voluntarily wearing a yellow star of david or gays sewing on pink triangles for fun.

    Sputnik Turkey along with many other muslim countries have done just about everything under the sun to distance themselves from muslims only to be consistently rejected by the west and christian Europe and now turkey is once again turning back to the muslim world.
    Distance themselves from muslims? How ridiculous. They created a secular state because religious states are inherently tyrannical.

    Religion belongs in houses of worship, not government.

    The muslim world was once very powerful and had all the things that west sees as necessary like freedom of religion, tolerance and the rights of women. We were also advanced in sciences when just about every group of people were still living in the dark ages. Islam when practiced the proper way brought this all about. The islamic golden age is testament to that.
    Again, back in the 7th century that was true. Then you stagnated as a result of religion and basically turned into backwards third world nations till Europeans came along and reintroduced a fraction of modernity.

    We as muslims have gone backwards as opposed to forwards as we've abandoned our values to be accepted by others.
    You traded your values for religious tyranny.

    With leaders all over the muslim world bowing down to western hegemony while their people are poor and starving you can understand why people turn to more reactionary people, people who are willing to fight.
    Uh.. the people are being oppressed by their own governments who want to maintain strict control. That's what happens when you let religion take over government.

    It happened in Germany with the Nazi's.
    That's ridiculous analogy, Germany lost the first world war and bankrupted itself doing it. Then instead of coming to terms with their own stupidity, they sought a scapegoat (jews, liberals), and endured a number of years of political instability in which right wing nuts fostered anarchy, all the while promising a return to stability. ZERO comparability with the Muslim world.

    The last part of your post is too chicken and the eggish i'll get a migraine thinking about it. Theoritically the Quran tells both men and women to be modest but nowhere does it state that we MUST cover up so those that force it upon women are wrong.
    .. and yet you choose to wear the very thing they force on other women. Ridiculous.

    I'm assuming your not theist and don't believe in the hereafter but in Islam we are given free will and will be judged in the next life for the choices we make.
    Free will. I'm sure all the women forced to wear the symbol of oppression you so easily embrace as a fuck you to mom would really agree with you there.

    All of this smacks of entitled child who has no real idea what it all represents. Blech.
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  12. #42
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    I did not start to wear Islamic clothing until after 9/11
    Why did you begin? As a political statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    I do not wear a Burka neither have I seen any muslim women wear it outside of Afghanistan
    I have. Not often but I've seen a full burka more than once, including gloves on the hands.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


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  13. #43
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Soj, you know the Christofascists would do it if they could get away with it. Only the legal framework of the US keeps them from doing it.. aside from bashings.. abortion clinic bombings... running for vice president...

    .. and unfortunately that legal framework is being chipped away at quite steadily by the freaks, aided and abetted by the spineless losers in congress and the right wing nuts there that support them.

    Hell, habeas corpus is already out the window, you're spied on with no legal recourse and the president can order your assassination any time he likes.

    The difference is becoming smaller by the day.
    But it is still a huge difference. And the Christo-facists who would 'do' that are actually a rather small number proportionally IMO.

    Yes I think we are(and have been going through) a bad period...and I am certainly concerned about it.

    But you have to look at what is actually happening here.. how actions have been taken..how many abortion doctors have been murdered-what happened to them afterwards(the murderers)..were they prosecuted? How is this affecting the society? What are the societal bulwarks to counteract these extremists(you and I are two I can name)..

    We have a free press..we have a free flow of info. We have discussion, debate, elections.

    And you have to relate this back to the original problem--

    Saying that what Sput said could be applied to the US. IT CANNOT. You cannot compare the Unites States, with it's history, laws, problems, freedoms, limitations, etc. etc. and the Xian fundamentalists, a minority, with..

    ..other nations with no democratic government or institutions, no free press, no free flow of information where large numbers of poor and uneducated people are moving towards Islamic fundamentalism.

    They are two different debates. You can debate the problems in the US, but it is a different debate discussing different things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    You asked me to take a walk in the countries of my background that was my answer. Don't dodge the answer because it didnt validate your arguement. I'm not from Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia is just one muslim country neither do they or their form of Islam represent all muslims.
    Women complain about sexual harrasment everywhere. Isnt there a problem with sex crimes against native women and nobody taking it seriously in Canada. Seriously!
    We muslims made advancements in science, medicine, astronomy, alchemy, mathametics and the arts in Islamic world before Canada came to existence! *snap* (this isnt beer it's root beer).

    Sojita- I do not wear a Burka neither have I seen any muslim women wear it outside of Afghanistan.

    January you may see the niqab or burka as oppressive and you are right that many muslims dont agree with it but it all comes down to what school of thought you follow and some do see it as compulsory. I do not follow the schools of thought that see it as compulsory but I chose to wear it. It was my choice. My mother doesnt like it either because she doesnt like Saudi arabia.


    Sputnik Turkey along with many other muslim countries have done just about everything under the sun to distance themselves from muslims only to be consistently rejected by the west and christian Europe and now turkey is once again turning back to the muslim world.The muslim world was once very powerful and had all the things that west sees as necessary like freedom of religion, tolerance and the rights of women. We were also advanced in sciences when just about every group of people were still living in the dark ages. Islam when practiced the proper way brought this all about. The islamic golden age is testament to that.
    We as muslims have gone backwards as opposed to forwards as we've abandoned our values to be accepted by others. With leaders all over the muslim world bowing down to western hegemony while their people are poor and starving you can understand why people turn to more reactionary people, people who are willing to fight. It happened in Germany with the Nazi's.
    The last part of your post is too chicken and the eggish i'll get a migraine thinking about it. Theoritically the Quran tells both men and women to be modest but nowhere does it state that we MUST cover up so those that force it upon women are wrong. I'm assuming your not theist and don't believe in the hereafter but in Islam we are given free will and will be judged in the next life for the choices we make.
    Too bad so much of the Islamic World seems to have gotten stuck in the 1300's. Canada has advanced and moved beyond in just about any category.
    I am surprised with alot of what you said. It does seem reasonable and I am glad you wrote it(bolded parts)
    Quote Originally Posted by BlameItOnVanity View Post
    I don't need to get my head out of the sand.. I am fully aware of the dangers of Islamic extremist and I see the burqa as a representation of an increasing level of fundamentalism, no denial about that.
    Maybe you need to get your head out of the sand about the christian conservatism in the USA, they might not have widespread power yet.. but seems like they are getting there
    I agree there are serious problems with the Christian Fundamentalists in the US. I do not in any way, however, find this problem to be analagous to the problems of
    Muslim extremism, or more precisely, increasing numbers of poor uneducated muslims turning towards Muslim extremism in certain nations such as Turkey, as Sput was discussing.

    They are two different things. Two different discussions.

    If you want to discuss US Christian Fundamentalists and how they are in the United States, then make a thread about it.

    Basically your original post was just a cheap shot at the US. C'mon now.

    Start a thread to discuss that problem if you want to discuss it.

  14. #44
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Geez, there are some stereotypes in this thread! Women in Egypt are not scared for their lives or run down by male lynch mobs. I am not Muslim, and wore what I would wear here in the U.S., walked the streets alone all the time, and never once encountered any form of male harassment or men trying to rape me! And I saw women with bikini tops on outside tourist spots, etc. The men there are incredibly kind, actually, I had a much better time there than what I have with some of the sick fucktard males here in the U.S. I lived there for three years, I came back in one full piece and not scarred for life.

    Islam is more of a threat because it operates within the confines of government, and we have a separation of church and state (which sometimes seems blurry, especially nowadays). But on a micro individual level, Christians are much scarier than Muslims, in my personal opinion. I have been treated very kindly and compassionately by Muslims, and I'm a Christian. On the other hand, many Christians I have met scare the shit out of me! Muslims don't pressure you to convert or make you feel like shit for your personal choices, at least not in my experience. Christians are much more judgmental. So it's always funny to me to see rampant bigotry against Muslims, especially when it's subtly fueled by Christian right wing groups. I think there is a lot of misconceptions about Muslims because of the oppressive regimes in the Middle East, usually that's all that people draw their impressions from unfortunately because I doubt that many "average Joes" have close relationships with many Muslim people here in the U.S. There is so much misinformation out there that it makes my head spin. It does seem acceptable as a group to hate Muslims, thankfully the fever pitch has gone done in the past few years but it's still there and it is scary.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    Saudi Arabia is just one country, but it's the cradle of Islam and sponsors many, many salafist version of the Koran that get sent outside of its country. Not to mention funding mosques outside of its country, so there is a concern about the way Islam is practiced in Saudi Arabia and its portents for muslim women around the globe.
    There no salafist versions of the quran were not christian there is only one Quran whether it is interpreted differently by different groups is another case. Mecca and medina are the cradles of islam and islam goes farther back than muhammed abd al wahhab. So no the saudi form of islam is not a representation of all islam. it's only 2 hundred years old.


    It's oppressive for the very reason that men are not advised or compelled to wear them.
    if you insist.

    I think it is pretty arguable whether Islam was tolerant during its golden age, which was about 600 or more years ago.
    I think it's been argued before. Spain or andalusia is just one example of people of all faiths being respected and allowed to follow their religions and share their thoughts. Spain brought under the catholics again lead to the expulsion of the jews and muslims, torquemada and the spanish inquisitition etc.
    Going back to the golden age, you had muslim hegemony. Muslim armies occuping the Balkans, Greece, Spain, and invading parts of France. Besieging other parts of Eastern Europe. I don't think a lot of non-Muslims would like to go back to that period.
    alot of empires did conquering those days the difference being we muslims were tolerant of other faiths. We did not wipe out whole races as is the case with the west. Greece today has not even one mosque yet was under islamic rule for hundreds of years. Can the same be said about the west? no and every continent on the planet apart from antartica is proof of that.

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