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Thread: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

  1. #46
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Burning phosphorus rounds melting people, rape, plunder, murder.. soudns about the same, minus the boobytrapping.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    I hav news for you, they don't actually give a crap about you and wouldn't give a crap about your country if it didn't fuck them over time after time. Military bases on their holy lands, supporting the corrupt dictators who oppress them, hell.. even ARMING them. Hello, remember when Saddam was America's bosom buddy and ally? How do you think that made the oppressed peoples of that country feel?

    Actually, that's a load of crap and propaganda. "They hate our freedoms!"
    .
    You are wrong on that one Grimm. If you take the time to find out what they really want it is Islamic theocracy WORLD WIDE. And they are willing to kill innocent people to get it.

    I would venture that the "average" joe Iraqi or Jordanian or Egyptian etc. probably just wants to be left alone, have a job, a house etc.. the problem is that "average" joe isn't speaking up and standing up against the extremists who are basically messing it up for everyone else who DOES want a peaceful life.

    The United States, or President Bush or whoever you are choosing to blame for this situation isn't going after "average" joe. They are TRYING to stop the fanatical extremists BEFORE anymore innocent people on planes or trains have to die!

    But it appears from your writing (maybe you are just choosing to be argumentative) that innocents dying is "okay" with you, or it is somehow "expected" which implies "deserved" because of government policies or actions that the "average" joe American who gets on a plane, or boards a bus has NO influence on whatsoever!

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    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    All is fair in love and war which is why the U.S. navy and Air Force need to unleash the pain and fight this war without political interference. After that we should send in the army and marines to clear out the war torn areas and turn it over the the iraqi's and have our men and women on the first red eye out of that hole.

  4. #49
    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Burning phosphorus rounds melting people, rape, plunder, murder.. soudns about the same, minus the boobytrapping.
    Oh please Grimm! Yes weapons used in war are bad, they are designed to kill. But America DOES have limits, we could be using napalm, mustard gas, nerve gas etc. (which Saddam had NO problem using on the Kurds). Does rape happen? yes it does, BUT it is PUNISHED when it is found out about, and those soldiers (or whoever) who did it go to JAIL. Unlike some of these countries which have institutionalized rape as a way to punish and control the population. there is a BIG difference between the two which you fail to realize or admit. I do not see our troops plundering, and again, if it was happening it would be punished. Saddam's troops plundered Kuwait with approval and encouragement. Again HUGE difference between American troops and others. But I'm sure you will refuse to see the obvious. When an American soldier commits murder, they are punished.

    So it seems that you are grasping at anything which will prop up your unrelenting hatred of America. Which is sad, because America with all her flaws is STILL an awesome country, with freedoms, and liberty, and safety.

  5. #50
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Delphinium
    You are wrong on that one Grimm. If you take the time to find out what they really want it is Islamic theocracy WORLD WIDE. And they are willing to kill innocent people to get it.
    No, actually I'm not. DO YOUR RESEARCH. I have, why can't you? Stop relying on Bush admin, facile, simplistic talking points for once in your life.

    I would venture that the "average" joe Iraqi or Jordanian or Egyptian etc. probably just wants to be left alone, have a job, a house etc.. the problem is that "average" joe isn't speaking up and standing up against the extremists who are basically messing it up for everyone else who DOES want a peaceful life.
    They are people caught in the middle, the ones ending up beheaded or blown to hell by both sides. What do you want them to do beyond surviving? The people in Saudi Arabia are oppressed by America's good allies, the House of Saud. Same with Egypt. How can they rise up with so much allayed against them, and with the powers that be in bed with a superpower?

    The United States, or President Bush or whoever you are choosing to blame for this situation isn't going after "average" joe. They are TRYING to stop the fanatical extremists BEFORE anymore innocent people on planes or trains have to die!
    Yes, that's why Bush is in all the countries suffering from terrorism. Please, you need to ditch this "Bush the savior" crap. There's only one reason they're in Iraq right now, and that's corporate greed, failed hegemonic manifest destiny ideology and oil. Why haven't they gone after Saudi Arabia.. you know, where all the 9/11 terrorists came from? How about Afghanistan? it's been abandoned to warlords and heroin producers!

    Again, this is elementary!

    But it appears from your writing (maybe you are just choosing to be argumentative) that innocents dying is "okay" with you, or it is somehow "expected" which implies "deserved" because of government policies or actions that the "average" joe American who gets on a plane, or boards a bus has NO influence on whatsoever!
    No, it's EXPECTED because actions have REACTIONS. If you kick a dog in the balls, it's going to bite you. If the dog bites your friend, who had nothing to do with your assault on the dog, does that person deserve it? No. But they were a victim of your assault. The reaction from the dog isn't much of a surprise, is it?

    When i think it's DESERVED, i'll tell you flat out. Till then, keep your filthy words out of my mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    All is fair in love and war which is why the U.S. navy and Air Force need to unleash the pain and fight this war without political interference. After that we should send in the army and marines to clear out the war torn areas and turn it over the the iraqi's and have our men and women on the first red eye out of that hole.
    You still don't get it. You're still trying to line your little toy soldiers up against an enemy you imagine is doing the same, all neat and tidy.

    Guerrilla wars DO NOT WORK LIKE THAT. Stratified military powers do not work against guerrilla tactics, you think you would have figured that out from Vietnam. It's street fighting against shadows that can blend into a crowd.. so unless you're willing to vaporize the crowd to get at that one shadow, you have a very difficult time of it.

    I can't believe I'm arguing basic military strategy with someone who was supposedly in the military!
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Grimm, what do you consider a "just" war? examples please.

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    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Grimm, I do not just rely on what the president says, all one has to do is peruse any news site lately and you will read about various islamic groups calling for various forms of theocracy, death to infidels etc. It is pretty clear exactly what their agenda is, because they make no bones about it.

    I do not accept the argument that this is all over oil. it certainly isn't that simple, otherwise I wouldn't be paying like 3 bucks a gallon for gas!

    As far as the Saudis etc go, I would think we have NO choice but to prop up these admittedly corrupt governments, otherwise each country will fall one after another into the grip of the fanatics who will simply fill the power vacuum leaving average joe citizen at their mercy, which is unacceptable.

    It is much more complicated of a situation (and who knows what goes on behind closed doors which is top secret or classified), and whether we like it or not, we have to let our president make decisions and stand behind him.

    George Bush is a good man in a very difficult time, it is easy to think any of us could do better, but in reality I doubt that.

  8. #53
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Delphinium
    [COLOR=purple]Oh please Grimm! Yes weapons used in war are bad, they are designed to kill. But America DOES have limits, we could be using napalm, mustard gas, nerve gas etc.
    On who? Where? an entire city? you're willing to gas an entire population to (hopefully) weed out a few terrorists?

    Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

    (which Saddam had NO problem using on the Kurds).
    Which the US supplied him with.

    Does rape happen? yes it does, BUT it is PUNISHED when it is found out about, and those soldiers (or whoever) who did it go to JAIL.
    Some do, mostly the military covers it up. That's documented.

    Unlike some of these countries which have institutionalized rape as a way to punish and control the population.
    Does that excuse the behavior?

    there is a BIG difference between the two which you fail to realize or admit.
    No, I'm fully aware of the difference, but you're using the "well he does it too, and worse, so there!" excuse. Other people's actions DO NOT EXCUSE YOUR OWN. That's called personal responsibility, something children eventually learn but obviously some like you haven't.

    I do not see our troops plundering, and again, if it was happening it would be punished.
    right, which explains the plundering and looting of Baghdad done by both US troops and the citizenry. Again, DO YOUR RESEARCH. Nothing was ever done.

    Saddam's troops plundered Kuwait with approval and encouragement.
    The result is the same. Abu Graihb saw a few lowly grunts punished for the orders given by the high command, who were never held accountable. It's just a different set of complications to obscure it.

    Again HUGE difference between American troops and others. But I'm sure you will refuse to see the obvious. When an American soldier commits murder, they are punished.
    LOL right, which explains the myriad of cover-ups throughout the decades regarding massacres, rapes, etc. They're all very well documented, but you INSIST on this "everyone is caught, everyone is punished" mentality that is incredibly naive.

    So it seems that you are grasping at anything which will prop up your unrelenting hatred of America.
    I don't need straws, I have facts. Also, I don't hate america. how many fucking times do i need to drill that into your head?

    Show me where I said that. TIll you can, shut the fuck up about what i "hate".

    Which is sad, because America with all her flaws is STILL an awesome country, with freedoms, and liberty, and safety.
    you're only as free as the short leash you're on, and considering you're willing to sell what little freedoms you have left for the illusion of security (just like nazi germany) you have no idea what America is about at all. Frankly, you're a traitor to its ideals.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    Grimm, what do you consider a "just" war? examples please.
    WW2. Bout it. WW1 was an exercise in expansionism and nationalist idiocy, Vietnam was a cynical political stunt, the first gulf war was about oil, the second is about oil, corporate greed and manifest destiny gone wrong.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #54
    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    First off, you are not an American so you really have no credibility when deciding who meets the criteria for being a "real American".

    Second, you are now choosing to miss the point and quote a few tired, over-blown left-wing assertions which are not accurate regarding these "cover ups". They hysterically repeat these accusations over and over but it doesn't make them true.

    As anyone who has served in the American military would know, there are NO coverups going on in regards to crime. The military is as hardcore as it gets in enforcing the UCMJ. But of course this doesn't fit with your view of our military being somekind of throwback to the days of vikings, looting and raping so I'm sure you will brush it aside or start hurling curse words my way.

    You really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to what an American should be. OR what our military is really like.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    Grimm, what do you consider a "just" war? examples please.
    I'd be interested in your answer to this Grimm.

    WW2. Bout it. WW1 was an exercise in expansionism and nationalist idiocy, Vietnam was a cynical political stunt, the first gulf war was about oil, the second is about oil, corporate greed and manifest destiny gone wrong.
    oh come on! Using what appears to be your logic based upon your posting, how could you possibly say WW2 was justified?! I've gotten the impression that you really aren't too concerned what various despots do around the world as long as America leaves them to their own devices. So who were we to step in and tell old Hitler what to do? He wasn't bothering Canada now was he? And maybe we should have tried diplomacy and talking with the Japanese after pearl harbor, since you know, we Americans were just so mean to those poor japanese folks. Maybe it was "expected" they would feel the urge to launch an attack on Pearl Harbor. BUT WAIT... isn't there a conspiracy theory out there that the US actually KNEW about the upcoming attack and chose to ignore it just so we could go to war... maybe ol' W took a page outta that playbook on a grand scale for 9/11? sheesh! you can't have it both ways Grimm.

  10. #55
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Quote Originally Posted by Delphinium
    [COLOR=purple]Grimm, I do not just rely on what the president says, all one has to do is peruse any news site lately and you will read about various islamic groups calling for various forms of theocracy, death to infidels etc. It is pretty clear exactly what their agenda is, because they make no bones about it.
    Yeah, over in THEIR little corner of the world. They don't give a damn abou the rest of the planet as long as the rest of the planet keeps its face outta their business.

    Jesus, even Osama says this multiple times.

    I do not accept the argument that this is all over oil. it certainly isn't that simple, otherwise I wouldn't be paying like 3 bucks a gallon for gas.
    ... are you serious? think beyond today. What happens in 20 years when the oil crunch hits? What happens when the country sitting on the 2nd largest oil reserves is US friendly, and the US has a LARGE permanent military presence? They're building superbases over there, but perhaps you hadn't heard about that.. or chose to filter it out. It's a long term situation, which corporations benifiting in the meantime. Again, elementary.

    As far as the Saudis etc go, I would think we have NO choice but to prop up these admittedly corrupt governments, otherwise each country will fall one after another into the grip of the fanatics who will simply fill the power vacuum leaving average joe citizen at their mercy, which is unacceptable.
    That's the most ridiculous explanation I've heard yet. Amazingly, this kind of mentality didn't seem to exist before 9/11, despite the very same , unchanged situations being in place for the last 40 years.. so your reasoning is way off base. Besides, supporting dictators (like the house of Saud, which has VERY VERY thick ties to BushOil dynasties) smacks more of opportunism and short term strategic goals (hello, Saddam was an ally in the 80;s, So was Osama!) and MONEY than altruism.

    It is much more complicated of a situation (and who knows what goes on behind closed doors which is top secret or classified), and whether we like it or not, we have to let our president make decisions and stand behind him.
    What blindly? Just accept what he does at face value? That's insane! you're giving him carte blanche to do anything he wants with that mentality. Again, betraying American ideals at every turn!

    George Bush is a good man in a very difficult time,
    Yeah, he's a real good man.. trying to write discrimmination into the constitution, having been smacked down by the Supreme court for acting like an emperor, lying about pretty much everything (verifiably too)... he sure is a good man! It takes a good man to pander to hate groups in order to advance your agenda.

    your concept of "good" is sick and twisted.

    First off, you are not an American so you really have no credibility when deciding who meets the criteria for being a "real American
    I'm more american than you are. I'd never sacrifice MY freedoms for lies, I'd never let some boy king rule without question, and I'd never be so braindead as to allow paranoia and fearmongering to rule my life.

    You do all of those things. That's not American at all.

    Second, you are now choosing to miss the point and quote a few tired, over-blown left-wing assertions which are not accurate regarding these "cover ups". They hysterically repeat these accusations over and over but it doesn't make them true.
    They're not hysterical. They aren't left wing conspiracies. They are documented by all major news publications. They are accurate. DO YOUR RESEARCH!


    As anyone who has served in the American military would know, there are NO coverups going on in regards to crime.
    http://today.reuters.com/News/newsAr...ITHA-PROBE.xml

    Really?

    The military is as hardcore as it gets in enforcing the UCMJ.
    The military is NOTORIOUS for protecting their own, even with cover-ups. That's also elementary. Hello, Mai Lay massacre in vietnam? Abu Griab?

    But of course this doesn't fit with your view of our military being somekind of throwback to the days of vikings, looting and raping so I'm sure you will brush it aside or start hurling curse words my way.
    No, I have an accurate, fact based version of what goes on. you have a silly childish rah rah jingoist view that is completely contrary to reality and facts.


    Youreally have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to what an American should be. OR what our military is really like.
    I'm more american than some cowardly, freedom abandoning, unquestioning sheep like you appear to be. I stand for the things your country is supposed to represent. How you ever got to how you are is beyond me. You're willing to turn your back on everything America stands for.

    Amazing.



    I'd be interested in your answer to this Grimm.[/QUOTE]

    oh come on! Using what appears to be your logic based upon your posting, how could you possibly say WW2 was justified?!
    What, fascism and Auschwitz and unrestrained genocide not justified enough?

    I've gotten the impression that you really aren't too concerned what various despots do around the world as long as America leaves them to their own devices.
    Not quite, and there's a massive difference between Nazi Germany and say.. Syria. One involved wholesale slaughter and unprecedented military conquest, eugenics , so forth and the other involves holding onto a little slice of land through religious oppression.

    So who were we to step in and tell old Hitler what to do? He wasn't bothering Canada now was he?
    Already answered that.

    And maybe we should have tried diplomacy and talking with the Japanese after pearl harbor, since you know, we Americans were just so mean to those poor japanese folks.
    Actually, your pacific fleet was cutting off their oil supply and they had to react. Not much of a choice when you're a tiny island dependent on outside fuel. That doesn't excuse their brutal expansion into the pacific rim, but it was a reaction to your military starving them for energy. Action, reaction.

    Maybe it was "expected" they would feel the urge to launch an attack on Pearl Harbor. BUT WAIT... isn't there a conspiracy theory out there that the US actually KNEW about the upcoming attack and chose to ignore it just so we could go to war... maybe ol' W took a page outta that playbook on a grand scale for 9/11? sheesh! you can't have it both ways Grimm.
    No, the US under-estimated long range Japanese capability. The strike on Pearl Harbor was an incredible feat, and one done out of desperation. The Japanese were beat before they even launched one plane.

    Again, elementary.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #56
    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Wow some of these posts are mixtures of idiocy, blind hatred, illogicality, resentment, misconception, prejudice and over all lack of humanity. I was really shocked that some people would think like that, now i understand who and what kind of individuals voted for Bush. All i can say thank God i am not that "patriotic" or brainwashed to ignore the crimes and mistakes of my people. Right and right and wrong is wrong no matter who does it or say it. Living in denial is an illness.

    Grimm you did an EXCELLENT job here, instead of yelling and ranting you supported your arguments with FACTS. I don't think i would have done a similar job. lol, i loved how you respond to each setence, now that must be tiring. But kudos to you

  12. #57
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Why thank you.. I actually enjoy responding point by point, it makes for a much more cogent argument, and nobody can accuse you of deliberately ignoring things... like some people do...
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #58
    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    Yes i figured you enjoy responding to each point (lol, battling for 6 pages and God knows how many to come) so they don't assume you are ignoring OR have no answer for them, great job.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    eh.. truth be told, I've been up all night with insomnia.. just couldn't get to sleep, so it was a welcome distraction.

    I simply cannot understand how people try to argue something when all they have to rely on is completely false information, or no information at all.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: On The Brink Of War In The Middle East (Again)

    i have been up all night with insomnia yet i was playing with my 'game boy', lol, you see the difference here

    I simply cannot understand how people try to argue something when all they have to rely on is completely false information, or no information at all
    I blame Bush (his gang), Ann Coutler and Fox news.

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