Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 89

Thread: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

  1. #61
    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,180

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    So anyone who disagrees with you(as a muslim or a convert or whatever) is a hater?
    No, anyone who post disgusting twisted lies INTENTIONALLY is a hater.

    And just because a female can get pregnant and have a child...does that mean she is intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually ready to do so?
    Did i say that? I said once a child go through puberty is not a child anymore, puberty changes the life forever.

    if Aisha was really 14-20 then I withdraw my pedophile statement-but I have yet to see anything to really discount this.
    Well you've got to validate your own assumption first. We the Muslims dont even know for sure how old was she, did you read the piece posted by Elise?

    Moreover, 1400 years ago isnt the same as now. Back then things were interpretted differently. Some of our greatest heros were 16 and 17 years old. Now he will be 40-45 years old.

    MrsDark was correct in her comments about what is happening to young women and girls in many muslim countries-what about the oppression of women? What about child marriages, honor killings,
    No she was not correct ONLY because she said oppression and forced marriage is ISLAMIC. Have you ever heard about nasty habits and customs? Islam is spread in many parts of the world, in places where people have different customs and traditions, do you think these people ditched their traditions? if EVERY Muslim is behaving according to Qur'an, wouldnt then EVER Muslim will behave the SAME.

    Oppression of women? can you provide me a verse that proves this is Islamic teaching? Child marriages as well? Dont give me the crap that some countries practice it cuz as i said, some are following their traditions. For example in Romania, 12 years old girl is allowed to marry, does that mean Christianity allow child "molestation" or child marriages?

    Honor killing? Please support your accusations with Islamic teaching not some incidents. The funny thing that Jordan has the highest rate of honor killings in middle east, around 39 girls are killed annually and guess what the government isnt even Islamic! want a prove, take a look at Queen Rania and how she dresses. Want another prove, Jordanian Islamic Scholars accombined with Women Rights Org. have complained how "honor killing" doer will only get 6-9 months in prison when he is an actual murderer, the gov responded "If we carried out tough punishment towards him, we will kill 'honor' feeling Jordan and will encourage our girls to fornicate"!! funny right, specially when this government is also supported by US Admin.

    what about places like Uzbekistan where at one point 20 years ago a woman was immolating herself every 36 hours by dousing herself with kerosene and setting herself alight because her life was so unbeable? Ever heard of an Uzbek film called "The flame"(mid to late eighties)? Check it out. Are any "Islamic" sites going to mention these things? Really?
    I didnt hear about that, so this was quite interesting to know. My question though what has Islam to do with them? I mean do you think its ritual for Muslim women to torch themselves when they are suffering? Dont you think ALL devoted Muslim women would have done the same thing.

    Islamic sites talks about the religion, its tenets, teachings and sayings. It doesnt focus on social or political topics because it has nothing to do with Islam itself, UNLESS a certain topic is related to religion.

    However, long time ago Hindu ladies were forced to kill themselves when their husbands die. They were told that their lives arent worth living and that once their men is dead, they must die with them. They changed that these days but i didnt hear any criticism to Hinduism about it.

    If I want to find out about the dirty underpinnings of Christianity do you thing I am going to go to a Christian source to get info? Of course not. You go to other sources, then go to the Christians and say, "What about xxx???" and wait for an answer. Same with Islam.
    Exactly my point. You do your own research, find infos on your on and be bold about presenting them. But then you must seek a religious person of that religion to explain your questions. You can debate with him/her for ages if you want, but at least you will know that you went for the right source. That's what i said.


    ETA: btw can you pls give me links to that Uzbek movie 'The Flame', i have done some research in imdb and all i can find is an Indian movie 'Jyoti' which translated as 'The Flame' and was made in 1981.
    Last edited by Karizma; March 8th, 2006 at 09:04 PM.

  2. #62
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,372

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    *sits back with popcorn and watches the theological discussion continue*
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #63
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Central Duh-hio
    Posts
    22,811

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    It is funny how when it suits your arguments in a particular way you..
    -put the focus only on the actual Islamic religion and it's actual written tenets, ignoring everything else
    -put the focus on governemnt and it's policies, ignoring evrything else
    -put the focus on just the fundamentalists, ignoring everything else
    -put the focus on traditions, ignoring everything else
    -put the focus on reasonable law abiding muslims-ignoring everything else.

    They are ALL interrelated dear. You cannot pick apart parts of something and then use all kinds of contradictory information, "reason" and "logic" to make a point.

    that was then, this is now?
    disgusted twisted lies?
    we really don't know?
    it is not really in Islamic texts?
    it is not islam(it is culture, others do it too, etc.)

    these are basically what your responses boil down to.

    Unfortunately I do not know how to post links(I am technologically retarded I admit) The film in question I believe was a state documentary from Tashkent done by Shukhrat Makhmudov and his wife Raizeta. They did a number of documentary films on Uzbek oppression (mostly of women) both politically and through culture and the muslim religion.

  4. #64
    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,180

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    -It is funny how when it suits your arguments in a particular way you..
    -put the focus only on the actual Islamic religion and it's actual written tenets, ignoring everything else
    -put the focus on governemnt and it's policies, ignoring evrything else
    -put the focus on just the fundamentalists, ignoring everything else
    -put the focus on traditions, ignoring everything else
    -put the focus on reasonable law abiding muslims-ignoring everything else.
    They are ALL interrelated dear. You cannot pick apart parts of something and then use all kinds of contradictory information, "reason" and "logic" to make a point.
    that was then, this is now?
    disgusted twisted lies?
    we really don't know?
    it is not really in Islamic texts?
    it is not islam(it is culture, others do it too, etc.)

    these are basically what your responses boil down to.
    Not really, they are not interrelated. For example we often hear about those pysho mothers kill their children in America or those psycho kids kill their mates in schools? Do we interrelate this with Judeo-christian values? Do we blame the government for that? Take KKK, although not powerful as before but they still exist. Do we blame Christianity or Jesus Christ? No, but we do blame government for allowing their org. to exist. Oklahoma Bombing? do we blame the guy's religion or him only? I would blame the religion if i found violent verses in his religion but when its clearly denounce violence, then the problem is him not what he pretend to follow.

    That's why when you say "women were torching themselves" and "child marriages" and so on. I'm not going to lie this never happened, they might be happening the minute i am writing. I'm not sure even why are they occuring. But as a follower of Islam, i refuse to blame Islam for their sick mentality. I refuse to attach Islam to their deeds and behaviours when Islam denounce such behaviour. I follow that religion and i still follow it with passion because it brough inner peace and comfort. Just because some lunatics are using its name for their horrific acts doesnt mean i will jump on Islam because these what the lunatics want. When someone starts to blame Islam, i say provide me with teachings that support your accusation. Its easy to accuse certain belief or anyone without evidence.

    When you want to know about a religion, you dont go for government policies, customs or tradition, you actually go for the core religious teachings. For example female circumcision is unIslamic and yet some Muslims perform it, do we blame Islam? It's an African tradition btw. Honor killing is so unIslamic, why? because we actually have laws to what is done for fornications and adultery. I mean if the religion doesnt preach it, why do we blame it? Muhammed Ali Kali is Muslim and so is Osama Bin Laden, why arent they the same if they both claim they follow the same religion? Plus i said 'honor killing' is at highest in Jordan, a kingdom that doesnt follow Islam's tenets and its obvious by the attitude demonstrated by their royals.

    Islam is not a race, its a religion. You can be Hispanic, White, Black, Arab, Jewish, Indian, Chinese and so on and still be Muslim. Do you think these people will have the same habits and traditions? In a perfect world, they would all have VERY common habits but the reality is not. I'm not lying to suit my thinking, you can check infos about Muslim countries and they all differ to a great extent. For example there is a tribe in Africa, which i forget its name now, who is Muslim and yet indulge the black magic in their religious rituals! I'm from Dubai (U,A.E.), alright? In this country female have the right to education, to drive, to divorce, to marry, to inherit, and hold important positions. Child marriage is banned in UAE, the girl must be at least 17 and the boy 18 in order for them to marry. Then go to Saudi Arabia, which is right next to us and witness the GAP in our laws. So to you which one represent Islam? us or them? I'd def. say UAE is more Islamic but extremists would say no. Islam didnt come to deprive women of their rights, Islam didnt survive for 1400 years on blood or oppresion. That's why instead of getting all confused, you read the religion itself and decide by yourself. Of course re-interpretations are playing huge role in today's confusion, the same verse will be used for peace and war!!! the problem is the zealots and those who support them.

    Unfortunately I do not know how to post links(I am technologically retarded I admit) The film in question I believe was a state documentary from Tashkent done by Shukhrat Makhmudov and his wife Raizeta. They did a number of documentary films on Uzbek oppression (mostly of women) both politically and through culture and the muslim religion.
    Well its def. one to watch, it seems interesting.

  5. #65
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Central Duh-hio
    Posts
    22,811

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    all ya muzlims are all alahk..y'all nuttin' but a buncha terr'ists tryin to blow up the Po-lar-us shoppin' mall here a few yers ago(an that'n be our bestest mall evah!) I noz it be true cuz the fedral go-vermin-t got on the tee vee and told the hole cuntry bout it so it gots to be raht! Yessiree y'all got it out for ole Clumbus towne-i feelz it im mah bonz i do! I says drop the bom on the hole lot of yuz!

  6. #66
    Gold Member Elise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    995

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    I'm going to say one last thing: my personal Islam is not about terrorism or burqas or the hijab or the prophet being a pedofile. My personal Islam gives me great personal satisfaction & I believe it makes me a better person. I feel closer to God via this religion, & it makes me sad to see how this religion has been distorted by both it's followers & some outsiders to the religion.
    I suppose the only thing I can do is live my life in such a way so that people don't associate me w/ what they normally stereotype Islam as.
    A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror. -Ken Keyes Jr.

  7. #67
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,372

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    Not even THESE burqas?

    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  8. #68
    Gold Member Elise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    995

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    ^^Well, I have to cover up when I go in the mosque to pray--so maybe I'll order one from burqas-r-us.com
    A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world. Everyone you meet is your mirror. -Ken Keyes Jr.

  9. #69
    Elite Member MsDark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Northwest MS/Memphis TN
    Posts
    26,945

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    I suppose it's just coincidental that the majority of the countries with the highest and most horrific incidences of human rights violations, specifically in regard to women and children, are countries where not only ISLAM is the most widely practiced religion, but where religion and government are intertwined to the point where the laws that govern ALL (or at least those not in power, which would be women to an even greater extent than men) supposedly come almost directly from the religious texts? How many websites do you want links to that involve specific, detailed and graphic descriptions? Websites that don't even care about religion, just saving lives. Where what is mentioned by the victims in their testimonies is the only reference to religion (not surprisingly).

    If some of these violations have nothing to do with the Muslim faith but cultural practices that exist outside of it, then Kaz you should be the first one protesting these *bad* Muslims who claim to be following the laws of ISLAM as they are meant to be interpreted, not online calling someone you don't even know a hater and implying I have some sort of unfair prejudice towards Muslims. And if you're trying to get me to buy that what is happening to women and children EVERY DAY in these countries under religious rule has nothing to do with religion....yes your religion...well, it's just not gonna happen. Does it mean I think all Muslims condone these things? No. Maybe your religion as you understand it does not condone what others do. But don't sit here defending it to me like I'm the little bigoted ignoramus who has it all wrong. Your fellow Muslims do.

    And for the record, I'm an equal opportunity *hater* when it comes to religion. So the deflection by bringing up what the Jews and and the Christians and or the Shintoists or the Druids, etc, etc...have done in the name of their god/s throughout history has no effect here. I know they suck too. And I'm sure plenty of their prophets were whoremongering polygamist pedophiles too, as they're only human. I care about people, not religion. And where there's an excess of religion, there is always an excess of suffering and human rights (specifically in regard to women and children) violations. Period. Coincidence? I think not.
    My Posts Have Won Awards. Can Any Of You Claim The Same? -ur_next_ex

    "I don't have pet peeves. I have major psychotic fucking hatreds, okay". ~George Carlin

  10. #70
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Central Duh-hio
    Posts
    22,811

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    ^^Very well said!

  11. #71
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    381

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    I just skimmed through quickly in here...wow,intense discussion...I will add in my points later.

    I just skimmed over a comment that the IDF does not target civilians,that is BULLCRAP. Any human rights group,documents,reports and statistics will tell you that the IDF kill MORE intentionally,on purpose and recklessly Palestinian civilian non-combatants than the Palestinian terrorists kill Israeli civilians.

    As for the Prophet Mohammed comment and calling him a pedophile...wow, how ignorant and vile that is. During that time, girls as young as 8 was very common to be married off to older men...even though now in our modern world, it is seen differently and seen as immoral and wrong..But in some other cultures it still happens. I just do not know HOW you can take a custom that was accepted and seen as harmless in the 600 and even before and then deem Prophet Mohammed a pedophile.

  12. #72
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In WhoreLand fucking your MOM
    Posts
    55,372

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    um.. cuz it IS pedophilia if there's sex involved between a grown man and an 8 year old girl. The time period doesn't matter, nor cultural traditions. Pedophilia is a predatory, nonconsentual relationship between an adult authority figure and a child unable to fight back. It was never 'innocent and harmless' to the child in question!

    So yeah, if these young girls were shoved into that kind of marriage and it was consummated at that age.. that's pedophilia, and well.. your prophet was a pedophile. That's just kinda how it is.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #73
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Central Duh-hio
    Posts
    22,811

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    ^^It is just like human slavery. It was a custom and lots of people had slaves and never thought a thing of it. But it was as wrong then as it is now and they were ALL wrong for having slaves. Same concept here-just because it was accepted then to have child brides does not make it OK-then or now. Do I put Mohammed in the same class as pedophiles today? No. Cultural and historical relativism do not make what happened any less wrong, but it does make it more understandable, and to me at least a little less odious; but it was what it was and it was an adult having sex with a child.

  14. #74
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    381

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    um.. cuz it IS pedophilia if there's sex involved between a grown man and an 8 year old girl. The time period doesn't matter, nor cultural traditions. Pedophilia is a predatory, nonconsentual relationship between an adult authority figure and a child unable to fight back. It was never 'innocent and harmless' to the child in question!
    No one here is condoning pedophilia...But,I am just saying back then, that is how the customs were. People had shorter lifespans and girls started adulthood at a young age. It was considered that RIGHT when they hit puberty they were married off sometimes to boys their age or older, or even men their senior.It was the custom...Yes, it is seen as immoral wrong and now, but I do not know how you can take a custom which was the norm back in those days and put it in today's context. Then I guess most men back before B.C. and even after and in the Middle Ages like King Henry VIII are pedophiles. Also,as for Ayesha, she was such a strong influential Muslim woman and did so much for Islam. She was very advocate and had high influence and power and for that she is very much respected in Islam for all that she has done for Islam.

    One thing is that NO one truly knows how old Ayesha was. Ayesha was engaged to someone else before she got engaged to Muhammad who was also her senior and not a Muslim either. Since she was mature of age, when she hit puberty, that is when her parents considered her to be mature enough for marriage. That was the custom and tradition. Then Abu Baker broke off the engagement to that Jober guy who was her fiancee because he was not a Muslim,and the gave his best friend,Prophet Mohammed his daughter to marry. They were engaged for 2 years before marriage. And even though no one knows for sure, most scholars claim she was married to the Prophet at 14.

    So yeah, if these young girls were shoved into that kind of marriage and it was consummated at that age.. that's pedophilia, and well.. your prophet was a pedophile. That's just kinda how it is.
    In Islam there is no prescription of what age to marry girls off. But for example, let's take a look at Hinduism.It finds it's roots in early marriages of the girls. Child marriage of daughters 5-6 years old was common due to the custom of dowry and to avoid scandals.So,it used to be made that an 18 year old male should marry a girl 6 years old.

    So, what we have to keep in mind is, not only was it a custom in the Arab society as well, to engage/marry a young girl it was also common in the other olden world societies. Also, the case of Mary the mother of Jesus comes to mind, in non-biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived Jesus.Mary had already been 'betrothed' to Joseph before conceiving Jesus. Joseph was a much older man and Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age when she was 'betrothed' to Joseph.

    So my point is, which I think Sojiita gave a very good point,Prophet Muhammad lived in a society and culture that existed 1400 years ago, and we must not judge what he or others did based on the standards we have set today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita
    ^^It is just like human slavery. It was a custom and lots of people had slaves and never thought a thing of it. But it was as wrong then as it is now and they were ALL wrong for having slaves. Same concept here-just because it was accepted then to have child brides does not make it OK-then or now. Do I put Mohammed in the same class as pedophiles today? No. Cultural and historical relativism do not make what happened any less wrong, but it does make it more understandable, and to me at least a little less odious; but it was what it was and it was an adult having sex with a child.
    I agree with your post.Good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrsDark
    I suppose it's just coincidental that the majority of the countries with the highest and most horrific incidences of human rights violations, specifically in regard to women and children, are countries where not only ISLAM is the most widely practiced religion, but where religion and government are intertwined to the point where the laws that govern ALL (or at least those not in power, which would be women to an even greater extent than men) supposedly come almost directly from the religious texts? How many websites do you want links to that involve specific, detailed and graphic descriptions? Websites that don't even care about religion, just saving lives. Where what is mentioned by the victims in their testimonies is the only reference to religion (not surprisingly).
    Societal practices should not be linked to a religion.Some societal practices are influenced by religion, but those which are harmful only DISTORT religion. But here is the thing about these passages in religious books,they are very ambigious and they have different meanings with different interpretations depending on the conceptualized contexts they are said to be in. So one person to the person will have different interpretations to what they mean.

    These "Islamic" governments were like this even BEFORE they brought into to the government their twisted versions and distortions of Islamic law. They just use Islam and distort it as political tool to fool the masses. Also, most of the traditions and culture in those places are because mostly of CUSTOMS and not religion, they are mostly made out of societal practices. They were even present even BEFORE Islam came along.

    The human rights violations and oppression of some women in some cases in the Middle East,has more to do with societal and traditional customs than religion.

    If it is the religion's faults of why you say that these rules are brought about in these countries then why am I not like those who violate human rights by distorting Islam?I surely as a Muslim, am disgusted by their abhorrent practices they do in the name of Islam.

    Same with the Christian Church and the Vatican where it is known there is sexual abuse and molestation of children,how do their actions equate with Christianity?Same when Europe oppressed women and ruled under the Catholic Church,they just used to distort religion to suit their own selfish agendas.

    And surely those "Islamic" dictatorships in the Middle East are everything which is UNISLAMIC.I am talking about the hypocrisy of the Saudi Kings who chof off people's heads for alcohol trade and other sins, when they are KNOWN to parade around with prostitutes and are raging alcoholics. The same can be said about those in Iran with the "Islamic" police force who bribe prostitutes and them let them go after screwing and raping them.

    And for the record, I'm an equal opportunity *hater* when it comes to religion. So the deflection by bringing up what the Jews and and the Christians and or the Shintoists or the Druids, etc, etc...have done in the name of their god/s throughout history has no effect here. I know they suck too. And I'm sure plenty of their prophets were whoremongering polygamist pedophiles too, as they're only human.I care about people, not religion. And where there's an excess of religion, there is always an excess of suffering and human rights (specifically in regard to women and children) violations. Period. Coincidence? I think not.
    I disagree, I think it is the people to blame and not the religions, as religions are only used as political tools and are distorted to pursue their selfish agendas.

    Take away religion and these human rights abuses and the evil of humans would STILL be there.In these countries these situations were present even BEFORE religions were instituted into the government. They just use different tools to pursue it. For example, take a look at North Korea where religion is banned.Whether it be communism which BANNED all religions to entitle for them to have the right to do human rights violations and make others suffer or whether it be democracy or anything else, those in power will use a political tool,twist it and distort it for their own cruel intentions.

  15. #75
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Central Duh-hio
    Posts
    22,811

    Default Re: Arab nations want UN resolution banning "slandering" of religion

    um..you do realize I was basically agreeing with Grimmlok. And I agree it was not just Mohammed...there were probably alot of men back then(andin other cultures) who I would have to put in the same class.
    What really gets me about Islam(and the part that is so hard to comprehend) is how it can be so fanatical, in that just making a cartoon about Mohammed would be so offensive that people would want to kill over it. I know there are other crazies in other religions, but it just seems so extreme right now with Islam. this is the kind of thing I would expect from Christianity several hundred years ago. Even the worst Christian fundies here would not go that far about a more offensive cartoon about Jesus(Although it may get there yet the way things are going here). It just seems to be such a blind, ignorant and narrowminded faith that some Muslims have. It is very threatening and alarming to people of other faiths, and to non-believers as well.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: November 6th, 2006, 05:35 PM
  2. Replies: 14
    Last Post: August 23rd, 2006, 07:38 AM
  3. Replies: 22
    Last Post: June 6th, 2006, 08:33 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 17th, 2006, 10:24 AM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: December 27th, 2005, 04:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •