Turkey: head scarf law approved

january · February 27th, 2008, 02:51 PM

President Abdullah Gul approved a change in the Constitution that lifts a ban against women’s head scarves at universities. Parliament passed the measure this month, and it has polarized Turkey. Mr. Gul, an observant Muslim whose wife and daughter wear the head coverings, said the amendments did not violate secularism, one of the founding principles of modern Turkey.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/wo...tml?ref=europe

effie2 · February 27th, 2008, 02:56 PM

Yeah,laws like this one will get them into EC faster...

sputnik · February 27th, 2008, 03:02 PM

there's hope the supreme court might rule it unconstitutional and reverse it. i think the army would be preferable to gul. he's going to undo a hundred years of secularism. at least the army has traditionally been very secular.

witchcurlgirl · February 27th, 2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sputnik

he's going to undo a hundred years of secularism.

thats a shame.

I was really hoping this wouldn't pass.

january · February 27th, 2008, 03:31 PM

It is a shame. You know, in America if they wanted to pass a law like this, I would wholeheartedly oppose it. I don't think the government should be involved in restriction of clothing choices at all, or forbid you from expressing your religion or lack thereof. But Turkey is different because of its fight to remain secular and the fact that Sharia Law is a much more present threat to them than it will ever be in America. Its a much different set of circumstances. I still don't know if its right to forbid you to express your religion, but I can understand it much more in Turkey because of the possible repercussions. I don't like that one man was able to enact such a change to the Constitution. I'm of two minds here, basically.

witchcurlgirl · February 27th, 2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by january

It is a shame. You know, in America if they wanted to pass a law like this, I would wholeheartedly oppose it. I don't think the government should be involved in restriction of clothing choices at all, or forbid you from expressing your religion or lack thereof. But Turkey is different because of its fight to remain secular and the fact that Sharia Law is a much more present threat to them than it will ever be in America. Its a much different set of circumstances. I still don't know if its right to forbid you to express your religion, but I can understand it much more in Turkey because of the possible repercussions. I don't like that one man was able to enact such a change to the Constitution. I'm of two minds here, basically.

I'm also of the two minds as you are. It is one of those special cases where we must look at all the nuances of the history of Turkey as a secular nation and the region's own past.

tkdgirl · February 27th, 2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by january

It is a shame. You know, in America if they wanted to pass a law like this, I would wholeheartedly oppose it. I don't think the government should be involved in restriction of clothing choices at all, or forbid you from expressing your religion or lack thereof. But Turkey is different because of its fight to remain secular and the fact that Sharia Law is a much more present threat to them than it will ever be in America. Its a much different set of circumstances. I still don't know if its right to forbid you to express your religion, but I can understand it much more in Turkey because of the possible repercussions. I don't like that one man was able to enact such a change to the Constitution. I'm of two minds here, basically.

I would agree. I actually smile when I see Muslim women wearing their head scarves, simply because they can. But, right now,there is quite the debate going on regarding Muslim head scarves that obscure a woman's face, and government photo IDs. Some in the Muslim community are opposed to a woman having to reveal her face for the photo. But I can completely understand law enforcement's stance on this. It isn't done to disrespect a religion, its done as part of our laws. As part of living in a country where people are permitted to worship whoever they wish, I would also hope that everyone understand that there are laws that every citizen must follow.

january · February 27th, 2008, 05:14 PM

TKD, here it is illegal to wear the niqab (facial covering) in certain areas of heavy security and also to wear it in government buildings and for government IDs. The hijab is always allowed (which only covers the hair). Most moderate Muslim women I know detest the niqab. At my sister-in-law's wedding, her husband's family from Saudi Arabia was not let into the wedding venue because they clearly had laws forbidding the niqab from being worn inside due to security reasons. I understand that completely, even though his family members were clearly pissed off. I have seen a few women here (usually in the very impoverished areas) wearing the niqab, but one friend (who wears a hijab) always clucks under her breath to show her disapproval when they walk by. She absolutely hates it. Most of my Muslim friends go to great lengths here to tell me that Mohammad NEVER spoke of the hijab in the Koran, only preached modesty. There is a great divide here from people who support the hijab but hate the niqab. In fact, when Muslim women go on Hejj, they are forced to remove their niqab in the holiest of places. So WHY if, in their holiest of places, they cannot have their face covered, why does it make sense in any other place? I have no personal qualms with the hijab, I actually find it really cute now, the girls wear really brightly colored hijabs with jeans...but I also cannot stand the niqab. There is no purpose for it and should never be allowed, if only for security reasons.

tkdgirl · February 27th, 2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by january

TKD, here it is illegal to wear the niqab (facial covering) in certain areas of heavy security and also to wear it in government buildings and for government IDs. The hijab is always allowed (which only covers the hair). Most moderate Muslim women I know detest the niqab. At my sister-in-law's wedding, her husband's family from Saudi Arabia was not let into the wedding venue because they clearly had laws forbidding the niqab from being worn inside due to security reasons. I understand that completely, even though his family members were clearly pissed off. I have seen a few women here (usually in the very impoverished areas) wearing the niqab, but one friend (who wears a hijab) always clucks under her breath to show her disapproval when they walk by. She absolutely hates it. Most of my Muslim friends go to great lengths here to tell me that Mohammad NEVER spoke of the hijab in the Koran, only preached modesty. There is a great divide here from people who support the hijab but hate the niqab. In fact, when Muslim women go on Hejj, they are forced to remove their niqab in the holiest of places. So WHY if, in their holiest of places, they cannot have their face covered, why does it make sense in any other place? I have no personal qualms with the hijab, I actually find it really cute now, the girls wear really brightly colored hijabs with jeans...but I also cannot stand the niqab. There is no purpose for it and should never be allowed, if only for security reasons.

Sounds very reasonable. Its interesting to read how other Muslim women (and societies) react to it. Thank you for this enlightening perspective!

effie2 · February 27th, 2008, 05:46 PM

When my eldest was studying in London i went to her Uni to pick her up and all those lovely girls came out with funky headscarves and super mini skirts ..make up on .high heels,the works

It was shocking and funny..
I really like the French aproach,no religious stuff,no crosses no david stars,no headscarves in schools.Uni's and social services,period.

january · February 27th, 2008, 08:03 PM

I think the French method is incredibly oppressive and insulting. I don't like the fact that people just can't wear what they want. I'm not incredibly religious myself, but I don't get why its that big of a deal to let people wear a cross or a star of david or a headscarf (I understand Turkey is different, but in general). I mean, people really need to get over being so offended by everything. Whether someone is wearing a cross or a shirt that mocks Christians, thats their prerogative, and I sure as hell don't want to limit what people can or cannot wear in general. I just don't think thats right at all. As much as it sucks for others, religious people have right too, I just don't see what the big deal is for someone to wear a star of david. How can someone be up in arms about that? I could care less.

sputnik · February 28th, 2008, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by effie2

I really like the French aproach,no religious stuff,no crosses no david stars,no headscarves in schools.Uni's and social services,period.

me too. and it doesn't take religious people's rights away. they can still practice their religion as they see fit. just not by wearing religious symbols in public schools. the french (and the turkish) define secularism as a physical separation of church and state. the public sphere is to be kept free from all religious influence, including visual symbols. and religion has its own sphere.

i can see why it's so difficult for north americans to agree with this because their culture places such a strong emphasis on individual freedoms (for that same reason they find mandatory identity cards threatening and a sign that the government is oppressing them). also, the US was created by puritanical pilgrims that weren't allowed to practice their religion at home and had to find a new country to do it. it's not the same type of society at all. in europe, people had to fight to free themselves from the oppression of religion and kick the church out of politics, lawmaking and public life.

Sojiita · February 28th, 2008, 09:04 PM

I agree with what people are saying about Turkey being an exception. Normally I would be totally in favor of a law allowing the choice of wearing or not wearing it..but in this case with Turkey after Attaturk and all of the moving toward secularism(and how I believe it has helped Turkey immensely) and the threat of a new Iran forming..I just do not know. I fear for Turkey's future.

I hope Turkey can successfully 'ride the highwire'