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Thread: It is hopeless

  1. #1
    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Last edited by Delphinium; July 22nd, 2006 at 09:58 PM.

    Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.

  2. #2
    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    there is a link to the video in the post

    Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.

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    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    Hatred or love is like everything else - in order for it to thrive and especially live forever, the seed has to be planted and nurtured very early. Once it takes root, it's impossible to undo.
    Claude os, aperi oculos!

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    Elite Member Algernon's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    While unnerving, the video is hardly surprising. Young children mimic what they see and hear, quite simply. Remember the "Nazi Olsen Twins" (I can't remember their names). That was disgusting to me, as well. Parents have a lot of power in brainwashing their children if they choose, and in a nation where hatred and war is commonplace anyway, it's just that much easier.
    Value the future on a timescale longer than your own. -Richard Dawkins

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    Silver Member shaki80's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    Yes, it certainly is hopeless...




    messages of love from Israel to Lebanon complements of the Israeli children.
    Last edited by shaki80; July 30th, 2006 at 01:00 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    First off, what do YOU think will happen when a peoploes are occupied, repressed, supressed and live incomplete misery by their occupiers? This kind of hatred will surely be created.

    Go look at the movement of any other peoples who were occupied, the South Africans felt the same towards the Dutch colonizers, the Irish felt the same against the British and the Irish Protestants, etc...

    There is the same thing from the Israeli side. The extremist Zionist movement is filled with racism, prejudice and hostility towards the Palestinians. Yet of course, in the North American media they try to wishwash Palestinians as growing in a culture of hate.

    By the way, the anger and distress this little boy feels is directed at the Israeli army and government, not the general Jewish people.

    I am Palestinian, I can guarantee you I do not hate Jews. I dislike their barbaric government, army and their extremist settlers. As for the Palestinians living in the midst of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, having seen their defenceless and innocent siblings and parents die in cold blood at the hands of the Israeli army or extremist settlers, having to live in the deplorable conditions as they do as second class citizens....You don't think there will be hundreds of thousands like this little boy who are created out of the occupation and hate to hate the occupiers themselves?

    This is present on both sides and innocent civilians die on both sides. But it is not all black and white. Until you see the destruction, death and humility the Palestinians have faced in this occupation...Then you'll uderstand why little boys like this desperate neasures of what they believe is THEIR last resort to become suicide bombers even though it is greatly unjustified.

  7. #7
    Hit By Ban Bus! UndercoverGator's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    Hazeleyed, you're fighting against an ignorant populace that assumes, courtesy of the mainstream Christians, that Israeli Jews are allowed to do what they want merely because they have been born Jewish. According to the neocons it's all a-okay because it mentions the return of Jews to Israel in the Bible so death to everyone else that opposes it. They ignore the fact that the Palestinian people had been living on that land peacefully for thousands of years and the fact that the very state of Israel of created by illegally seizing the land at the end of WW2 just so the British and Americans wouldn't be bothered by the question of what to do with all the displaceds Jews in Europe after the end of the war.

    It's like trying to talk to Scientologists or equally brainwashed people. What do you think would have happened if the situation was reversed and Lebanon started bombing Israel? Or even two of the European nations started clobbering each other like that. Can you imagine the uproar??

  8. #8
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    ^
    I agree with you UndercoverGator

    My mind just boggles me how they will have an argument for the one side and COMPLETELY disregard of why it happens. That is how they see it...They only see it from one side. They never ask questions WHY?They never try to understand why it is the way it is.

    I completely abhor violence and I am fully and completely against it. But to put up a video of a Palestinian child who grew up in war and under an occupation and making it seem like it is "a culture of hate" which stems out of NOWHERE is ignorant to say the least. This child has seen death and violence since the day he was born. That is ALL he knows. This child has had family murdered in cold bloods by the Israeli army, how will he become? It is just like the documentary where it followed thee 13 year old boy. He said, you know what, I'd rather be dead, because being born a Palestinian under this occupation is like I am the walking dead. This kid in the documentary was all talking about death and how he wishes he was never born to see what he has seen. What do you expect will become of these children?

    If anyone is interested, there is this amazing documentary I watched entitled Arna's Children. It reflects why the Palestinian children become the way they are. It is made by a half Jewish/half Palestinian actor and director whose Jewish mother,Arna, took these Palestinian children as her own.

    Very touching and powerful documentary.

    ARNA'S CHILDREN tells the story of a theatre group that was established by Arna Mer Khamis. Arna comes from a Zionist family and in the 1950s married a Palestinian Arab, Saliba Khamis. On the West Bank, she opened an alternative education system for children whose regular life was disrupted by the Israeli occupation. The theatre group that she started engaged children from Jenin, helping them to express their everyday frustrations, anger, bitterness and fear. Arna's son Juliano, director of this film, was also one of the directors of Jenin's theatre. With his camera, he filmed the children during rehearsal periods from 1989 to 1996. Now, he goes back to see what happened to them. Yussef committed a suicide attack in Hadera in 2001, Ashraf was killed in the battle of Jenin, Alla leads a resistance group. Juliano, who today is one of the leading actors in the region, looks back in time in Jenin, trying to understand the choices made by the children he loved and worked with. Eight years ago, the theatre was closed and life became static and paralysed. Shifting back and forth in time, the film reveals the tragedy and horror of lives trapped by the circumstances of the Israeli occupation.
    http://www.arna.info/Arna/movie.php

    You can click here to watch the trailer:
    http://www.thefreedomtheatre.org/projects-trailor.php

  9. #9
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    Quote Originally Posted by UndercoverGator
    Hazeleyed, you're fighting against an ignorant populace that assumes, courtesy of the mainstream Christians, that Israeli Jews are allowed to do what they want merely because they have been born Jewish. According to the neocons it's all a-okay because it mentions the return of Jews to Israel in the Bible so death to everyone else that opposes it. They ignore the fact that the Palestinian people had been living on that land peacefully for thousands of years and the fact that the very state of Israel of created by illegally seizing the land at the end of WW2 just so the British and Americans wouldn't be bothered by the question of what to do with all the displaceds Jews in Europe after the end of the war.

    It's like trying to talk to Scientologists or equally brainwashed people. What do you think would have happened if the situation was reversed and Lebanon started bombing Israel? Or even two of the European nations started clobbering each other like that. Can you imagine the uproar??
    Israel was not created 'illegally'..unless you consider the UN to be an 'illegal' organization. And the area has had a population that has waxed and waned for centuries..when Jews started to migrate heavily to the area it was underpopulated, mostly non-arable land with little infrastructure. Jewish improvement brought in non-jewish settlers as well. This whole idea of a 'palestinian people' living there for eons is largely untrue. Most non-jewish people who trace their past to that area can trace it back no further than most of the jews who live in the area today. I can imagine the 'uproar' if a European nation kidnapped soldiers of another European nation and kept them as hostages. This conflict is not that one sided-neither side at this point is saintly, and neither side is to be demonized.

    I support Israel(not necessarily everything the government or military says or does)..and I am not ignorant, a neocon, or a religious fundamentalist. Nor do I have any jewish heritage. Just because someone supports Israel, or more precisely the continued existence of Israel, does not mean they are 'brainwashed' , or bigoted, or guilt-ridden because of the holocaust.

    *I hate this topic!!! I always end up quarreling with other liberals about this issue and I hate that! ...they need to just settle things so I am not in this quandry ..or just nuke the whole damn area!*
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    Israel was not created 'illegally'..unless you consider the UN to be an 'illegal' organization. And the area has had a population that has waxed and waned for centuries..when Jews started to migrate heavily to the area it was underpopulated, mostly non-arable land with little infrastructure. Jewish improvement brought in non-jewish settlers as well. This whole idea of a 'palestinian people' living there for eons is largely untrue. Most non-jewish people who trace their past to that area can trace it back no further than most of the jews who live in the area today.
    This is completely FALSE. That is a myth spewed by the extremist Zionist movement. I can find you literature from Zionist leaders that talk of the indigenous Arabs which were populationg that area before the great wave of influx of European Jews came about in Palestine.

    Palestine was populated by mostly indigenous Arab natives who took on agriculture, farming,etc...it was not a nomadic people and underpopulated region as you claim. Statistics, documents and reports prove that.

    Here are popultion statistics:
    http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story574.html
    http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story559.html

    Palestinian Arabs ever since 1012 were the majority until the creation of Israel in 1948 when Israel was created.

    How Israel was created was EXACTLY in the fashion of colonization. Why it is illegal was because in order ofr Israel to be created, the Arab indigenous population had to go through dispossession and ethnic cleansing for the nation of Israel to be created, that is why.

    Of course the extremist Zionist movement sprews this crap that it was "A land with no people is for a people with no land". This extremist Zionist tactic that Palestinians don't exist, putting them in quotes and dismissing their culture,heritage and history and trying to eradicate the Palestinian people as nothing but a myth is a method ethnic cleansing and bigotry.

    It has been like this since the BEGINNING when Israel was created. The Zionist colonizers would call the indigenous Arab natives animals, barbarians and primitive peoples and disregarded them as inferior and uncivilzed and that the European Jews were going to come in and blossom this great nation of Eretz Israel into a land of great opportunities and civilized country. This is no different that how when European colonizers occupied, and repressed others because they thought they were almighty and had a mission as a burden to "civilize" otyhers.They completly did in the past and TODAY ignore,overlook,eradicate and dismiss Palestinians as nothing because to them they are inferior and not worthy of acceptance and like this disregarding the Palestinians and erasing them is dismissing the Palestinian plight exists.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    The fact that this, let's call it "ethnic conflict" has been going on for centuries; and after so many generations on both sides have indoctrinated their children to be antagonistic and suspicious against the 'other side' makes this whole situation totally depressing and, I fear, hopeless.

    Melbourne has a large Lebanese community, most of whom migrated here in the 1970's and 80's after the civil war there and so this latest crisis is causing a lot of anguish because so many people have families still living in Lebanon. For the most part these Lenanese Aussies have assimilated very happily and successfully into the wider community although of course there is a small percentage of disaffected and increasingly radicalised young men intent on causing racial and religious conflict.

    Anyway, a well-meaning ecumenical youth organisation arranged for a public forum/debate broadcast on local radio where both Jewish and 'Arab' people could go and debate the current situation and give their perspective on how to move forward and try to find a peaceful solution. It was interesting, and deeply depressing, to note that in almost every case the person who took the floor launched into a highly biased, sometimes bigoted, tirade of resentment, accusation, propoganda and bigotry (all veiled in the most polite terms of course). Nobody had anything worthwhile to offer the debate and certainly we didn't hear any hint of concilliation or a willingness to meet half way - just the same old historical 'injustices' and griping from both sides. Everyone took the stance they they were on the moral high ground and after an hour of listening to this implacable mutual distrust and even hatred I came to the reluctant conclusion that there really is no hope.
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  12. #12
    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazeleyed_Honey
    This is completely FALSE. That is a myth spewed by the extremist Zionist movement. I can find you literature from Zionist leaders that talk of the indigenous Arabs which were populationg that area before the great wave of influx of European Jews came about in Palestine.

    Palestinian Arabs ever since 1012 were the majority until the creation of Israel in 1948 when Israel was created.
    From: http://www.jewfaq.org/israel.htm

    The Promised Land


    The history of the Jewish people begins with Abraham, and the story of Abraham begins when G-d tells him to leave his homeland, promising Abraham and his descendants a new home in the land of Canaan. (Gen. 12). This is the land now known as Israel, named after Abraham's grandson, whose descendants are the Jewish people. The land is often referred to as the Promised Land because of G-d's repeated promise (Gen. 12:7, 13:15, 15:18, 17:8) to give the land to the descendants of Abraham.

    The land is described repeatedly in the Torah as a good land and "a land flowing with milk and honey" (e.g., Ex. 3:8). This description may not seem to fit well with the desert images we see on the nightly news, but let's keep in mind that the land was repeatedly abused by conquerors who were determined to make the land uninhabitable for the Jews. In the few decades since the Jewish people regained control of the land, we have seen a tremendous improvement in its agriculture. Israeli agriculture today has a very high yield.

    Jews have lived in this land continuously from the time of its original conquest by Joshua more than 3200 years ago until the present day, though Jews were not always in political control of the land, and Jews were not always the majority of the land's population.

    The land of Israel is central to Judaism. A substantial portion of Jewish law is tied to the land of Israel, and can only be performed there. Some rabbis have declared that it is a mitzvah (commandment) to take possession of Israel and to live in it (relying on Num. 33:53). The Talmud indicates that the land itself is so holy that merely walking in it can gain you a place in the World to Come. Prayers for a return to Israel and Jerusalem are included in daily prayers as well as many holiday observances and special events.

    Living outside of Israel is viewed as an unnatural state for a Jew. The world outside of Israel is often referred to as "galut," which is usually translated as "diaspora" (dispersion), but a more literal translation would be "exile" or "captivity." When we live outside of Israel, we are living in exile from our land. Jews were exiled from the land of Israel by the Romans in 135 C.E., after they defeated the Jews in a three-year war, and Jews did not have any control over the land again until 1948 C.E.
    I am neither Jewish nor Muslim. I am not brainwashed or a neocon theocrat. And 'white-guilted colonialist' is that last label anyone would ever assign to me. I will, however, try to educate myself to have a better understanding of the divergent perspectives and refrain from labeling them as patently false or propaganda if I don't agree with them; it's enough to know that there are massive populations who believe in their version of 'the Truth' - religion is a tough one to argue or dissuade.

    *I hate this topic!!! I always end up quarreling with other liberals about this issue and I hate that! ...they need to just settle things so I am not in this quandry
    I'm with you on this, Sojiita - I hate this topic, it's so divisive (like several others I can think of). There'll never be a resolution with which all sides can agree. All I can do with it is try to learn from it and understand without being judgemental so that I won't further contribute to the problem.
    Claude os, aperi oculos!

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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    What is especially ironic is that people on both sides of this conflict usually ignore their nationality, culture, ethnicity or politics and align themselves according to their respective religions which both sides claim promote peace, tolerance and goodwill to all mankind. Yeah right.
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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    Kill them all. Let god sort em out
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Default Re: It is hopeless

    lovely_bones,
    That land was inhabited by peoples before the Jews were driven out from EGYPT to settle in the Promised Land.

    You know that some Palestinians can trace their roots to the ORIGINAL inhabitants of the Land of Canaan?This has been archeologically and genetically proven. Some of them can be traced to the Canaanites,Phillistines, former Jewish tribes,etc... ORIGINAL Palestinians and Jews can BOTH trace their roots there...So then why dismiss the Palestinian origins to that land?
    The Origin of Palestinians and Their
    Genetic Relatedness With Other
    Mediterranean Populations

    Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, Nagah Elaiwa, Carlos Silvera,
    Ahmed Rostom, Juan Moscoso,
    Eduardo Gómez-Casado, Luis Allende, Pilar Varela,
    and Jorge Martínez-Laso

    ABSTRACT: The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for
    the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte
    antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison
    with other Mediterranean populations by using
    neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence
    analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close
    to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks
    (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians and
    Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both
    Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites,
    who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian and
    Anatolian peoples in ancient times.
    Thus, Palestinian-
    Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in
    genetic, differences. The relatively close relatedness of both
    Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean
    populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean
    cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric
    and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic
    diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations
    substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle
    East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. Human
    Immunology 62, 889-900 (2001). ã American Society
    for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics, 2001.
    Published by Elsevier Sciece Inc.
    http://kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~durai...opulations.pdf

    So both jews and palestinians can trace their roots to there..They all used to live in peace-Jews,Christians,and Muslims for centuries. Actually, the creation of Israel was made by the European Zionist committee and European colonial powers DISREGARDING the indigenous Arab natives and even without the consultation of the Jewish Palestinians of that time.

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