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Thread: Netherlands To Ban the Veil

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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Default Netherlands To Ban the Veil

    The Dutch minority government plans to ban Muslim face veils such as burqas and other forms of clothing that cover the face from next year.


    The ban would make the Netherlands, where 1 million out of 17 million people are Muslim, the second European Union country to ban the burqa after France, and would apply to face-covering veils if they were worn in public.


    "People should be able to look at each other's faces and recognize each other when they meet," the interior affairs ministry said in a statement Friday.


    The ban will also apply to balaclavas and motorcycle helmets when worn in inappropriate places, such as inside a store, Deputy Prime Minister Maxime Verhagen told reporters, denying that this was a ban on religious clothing.


    Geert Wilders' anti-Islam Freedom Party (PVV), which helps give the Liberal-Christian Democrat coalition a majority in parliament, has set considerable political store on getting the so-called burqa ban passed into law.


    Few Muslim women in the Netherlands wear the Arabic-style niqabs which leave the eyes uncovered and Afghan-style burqas that cover the face with a cloth grid. Academics estimate the numbers at between 100 and 400, whereas Muslim headscarves which leave the face exposed are far more common.


    The coalition has agreed to submit a new law to parliament next week stipulating that offenders would be fined up to 390 euros ($510), the ministry said.


    Verhagen said the ban was intended to ensure that a tradition of open communication cherished in Dutch society was upheld, and to prevent people from concealing their identity in order to do harm.


    Wilders, who condemned Dutch Queen Beatrix for covering her hair with a scarf on a recent royal visit to the Middle East, said on Twitter: "Great news: burqa ban will finally come to the Netherlands! Proposal approved by ministers' council. Excellent!"


    Maurits Berger, professor of Islam in the contemporary West at Leiden University, said only a few hundred women wear the full face veil in the Netherlands.


    "This is highly symbolic, it's part of the deal made with PVV," Berger said. "We are in the middle of a crisis. There are worse things to tackle."


    The minority coalition is at odds with the Freedom Party over where to make further budget cuts, and the scale of the cuts needed.


    The face-veil law, which still needs to win approval in both houses of parliament, excludes clothing worn for security reasons such as that worn by firemen and hockey players, as well as party clothing such as Santa Claus or Halloween costumes.


    The ban does not apply to religious places, such as churches and mosques, nor to passengers on airplanes or en route via a Dutch airport, the interior ministry said.


    Dutch plan ban on Muslim face veils next year | Reuters
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    Elite Member Jezi's Avatar
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    Actually, no-one can cover their faces in public, it's not just muslims.

    If I can't wear a hoodie inside a store, why should they be allowed to wear a veil?

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    Elite Member faithanne's Avatar
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    The ban will also apply to balaclavas and motorcycle helmets when worn in inappropriate places, such as inside a store, Deputy Prime Minister Maxime Verhagen told reporters, denying that this was a ban on religious clothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jezi View Post
    Actually, no-one can cover their faces in public, it's not just muslims.

    If I can't wear a hoodie inside a store, why should they be allowed to wear a veil?
    But this says "in inappropriate places, such as inside a store" so I assume it's OK to wear them on the street. Does that mean Muslim women can't cover their face on the street unless they're wearing a bike helmet or balaclava?
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    Elite Member Jezi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithanne View Post
    But this says "in inappropriate places, such as inside a store" so I assume it's OK to wear them on the street. Does that mean Muslim women can't cover their face on the street unless they're wearing a bike helmet or balaclava?
    It means that a helmet can only be worn when appropiate, i.e. when you're on a motorcycle or a moped. You can't wear it when just walking around. The phrase is worded badly. I don't think balaclava's are allowed in public anywhere, except maybe when it's extremely cold. I have never seen anyone wearing them anyway.

    So to answer your question, yes a veil could be worn under a helmet but only when on a motorcycle or moped. Otherwise, both need to come off.


    What I meant with my comment is, a lot of people are yelling 'racism!' when it has nothing to do with race or skin color. Muslims come in all colors and races, including white. Veils in general aren't allowed when they cover the entire face. Headscarves are okay, but not inside stores, etc. I stood behind an elderly lady once who was wearing a scarf inside, and she was asked to remove it. I've been asked to take down my hood. No biggie.

    The law is indiscriminate, it's not just about muslims and their veils and I think it's a shame the media re taking that angle.

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    Elite Member faithanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jezi View Post
    Headscarves are okay, but not inside stores, etc. I stood behind an elderly lady once who was wearing a scarf inside, and she was asked to remove it. I've been asked to take down my hood. No biggie.

    The law is indiscriminate, it's not just about muslims and their veils and I think it's a shame the media re taking that angle.
    I don't understand this. What's wrong with covering your hair inside a store? Or anywhere for that matter? I don't even care if people cover their face, so long as they show it when necessary ie for identification, inside public buildings etc.

    I just don't understand the mentality that we somehow have the "right" to be able to see peoples' faces. I hate the burqa and everything it stands for, but so long as I'm not forced to wear it I don't see that it's any of my business whether someone else does.
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    Elite Member Jezi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithanne View Post
    I don't understand this. What's wrong with covering your hair inside a store? Or anywhere for that matter? I don't even care if people cover their face, so long as they show it when necessary ie for identification, inside public buildings etc.

    I just don't understand the mentality that we somehow have the "right" to be able to see peoples' faces. I hate the burqa and everything it stands for, but so long as I'm not forced to wear it I don't see that it's any of my business whether someone else does.
    I guess it's for the security cameras, but also so everyone can see your face. If you can't be anonymous, it's harder to commit a robbery or other crimes. It also has to do with our Dutch culture, we're open and honest people and being able to see each other's faces is part of that. It's been like this for as long as I can remember and now it's been made into a law.

    Eta: As for just covering the hair, well, there's just too much room for error. One person will say, but it's just over my hair. Other person will say, but part of your face is also obscured. So they decided the law will state no head covering at all.

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    Elite Member faithanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jezi View Post
    If you can't be anonymous, it's harder to commit a robbery or other crimes. It also has to do with our Dutch culture, we're open and honest people and being able to see each other's faces is part of that. It's been like this for as long as I can remember and now it's been made into a law.
    See I think the opposite, I should have the right to be anonymous if I want to. Like I said, where I need to be identified I wouldn't have a problem showing my face, but I also live in a very open culture and I still don't think that gives everyone else the right to gawk at me if I don't feel like it. What if you've had facial surgery or a bad wax job or peel, don't you have the right to go incognito if you're embarrassed? I wouldn't want to live in a society that thinks anyone who wants to be anonymous is planning to commit a crime. That's just paranoia.
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    Elite Member stef's Avatar
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    ^^ i agree, and even without doing any research i'm sure there haven't been many bank robberies committed by women wearing burqas in the past.

    i think the reasons for the banning aren't really about security, i think the real reason is to make a statement like "we're not tolerating the oppression of women". i'm not sure if that's the right way to do it, though. it's just a piece of clothing and not the religion itself. banning it will only criminalize the women and not the oppressive religious views that stand behind it.
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    Elite Member Sarzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stef View Post
    i think the real reason is to make a statement like "we're not tolerating the oppression of women". i'm not sure if that's the right way to do it, though. it's just a piece of clothing and not the religion itself. banning it will only criminalize the women and not the oppressive religious views that stand behind it.
    I agree that's why they're doing it, but good for them imo.

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    Elite Member faithanne's Avatar
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    But forcing them won't work, even if it is for the "right reasons". Muslim women aren't suddenly going to throw their veils away and walk around with their heads uncovered; it will just push these women back into their homes, and at least allowing them to wear their veils lets them keep some connection with society. If they can't experience the outside world for themselves how will they be able to make a decision about whether the burqa is what they really want? It should be for them to decide, not the government.
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    Elite Member Jezi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithanne View Post
    But forcing them won't work, even if it is for the "right reasons". Muslim women aren't suddenly going to throw their veils away and walk around with their heads uncovered; it will just push these women back into their homes, and at least allowing them to wear their veils lets them keep some connection with society. If they can't experience the outside world for themselves how will they be able to make a decision about whether the burqa is what they really want? It should be for them to decide, not the government.
    Women can still cover their heads, just not their faces.




    I guess the equivalent would be an islamic country making wearing a veil mandatory where it wasn't before. Nothing really changes because most people were doing it anyway.


    Living here, it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me because nothing really changes, except it's the law now.

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    I don't think the new rule will confine the Muslim women who choose to wear it to their homes, won't they just settle for wearing the hijab when venturing outside??? I mean, the burqa and the niqab are not even mandatory in Islam, it's just the hijab.

    Look, imho, this whole backlash towards the burqa is because the burqa represents change in society. It wasn't always around, and it didn't really come to light until 9/11. People, in general, they don't like to see change in society, they like it the way it is. So seeing a woman wearing a burqa probably ignites a sense of fear or hate inside of them, esp. the way Muslims are portrayed in the media nowadays. So, yes I am implying that this new rule could possibly be stemming from racism.

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    Elite Member Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    For me, it has nothing to do with 9/11 or changes in society. A burqa is an insult to every woman. I don't want to see them, period.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrocuted_sheep View Post
    So seeing a woman wearing a burqa probably ignites a sense of fear or hate inside of them, esp. the way Muslims are portrayed in the media nowadays. So, yes I am implying that this new rule could possibly be stemming from racism.
    It certainly ignites hate in me. Hate for the men that have done this to women.

    Seeing a woman in a burqa, a real burqa- not just veiled- is an affront to any human being.
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    Elite Member Butterfly's Avatar
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    Agree with Chilly & Witch.

    If you don't want your face to be seen then stay out of the public and privately owned stores. I understand why store owners don't want people in their stores with their face covered.
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