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Thread: Burka ban would be 'un-British'‎

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    Elite Member Honey's Avatar
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    Default Burka ban would be 'un-British'‎

    Last week French MPs voted to ban wearing the Islamic full veil in public

    Banning the wearing of the Islamic full veil in public would be "un-British", the immigration minister has said.
    Damian Green told the Sunday Telegraph trying to pass such a law would be at odds with the UK's "tolerant and mutually respectful society".
    It comes after Tory MP Philip Hollobone introduced a private members' bill which would make it illegal for people to cover their faces in public.
    Last week French MPs voted to ban the wearing of full face veils in public.
    The bill, which was overwhelmingly approved by France's lower house of parliament, must now be ratified by the Senate in September to become law.
    If it is passed, it will be illegal to wear garments such as the face-covering niqab or body-covering burka, anywhere in public.
    Several other European countries including Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium have debated regulating the use of face covering garments.

    But Mr Green said such a move was "very unlikely" to be copied in the UK.
    "Telling people what they can and can't wear, if they're just walking down the street, is a rather un-British thing to do," he told the Sunday Telegraph.
    "We're a tolerant and mutually respectful society."
    Catherine Heseltine from the Muslim Public Affairs Committee said MPs should not waste their time discussing it.
    She said: "Britain is a free country. We value our freedoms and we don't want MPs or the government telling British citizens what they can or can't wear.
    "How does it hurt anybody else if a woman chooses to wear a small piece of cloth across her face?
    "Quite frankly, MPs, there's a £160bn debt; shouldn't they be busier worrying about what they're going to do about that, than a small piece of cloth that a few women choose to wear?"

    BBC News - Damian Green says burka ban would be 'un-British'

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    historically europe has always had laws forbidding people from covering their face. carnival was the only time of year where you could wear a mask. crime rates always went up during that week as well.
    if it's not enough that burkas should be banned because they are a tool for oppressing women (even in cases where women say they choose to wear them), the security argument should be enough to convince anyone.
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    Elite Member FashionVictim's Avatar
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    This misogynistic bullshit should be banned.

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    Islamophobia is Islamophobia. Dont hide behind security and the rights of women in another faith to hide your bigotry.
    liberty and democracy should denote that your tolerance doesn't apply only to those who share your values and, further, conceive them the way you do, for you will be making mockery of tolerance & freedom, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values.
    It's fascinating that what is worn by less than 0.01% of Frances population is could become such a major issue. If you do not like what we wear then fine but do attempt to speak for me or my kind by telling me I am oppressed and forcing your presumptions about what I wear and what I should wear on me.

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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    liberty and democracy should denote that your tolerance doesn't apply only to those who share your values and, further, conceive them the way you do, for you will be making mockery of tolerance & freedom, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values.

    Wouldn't it be great if more Islamic countries practiced that?
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    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    Islamophobia is Islamophobia. Dont hide behind security and the rights of women in another faith to hide your bigotry.
    liberty and democracy should denote that your tolerance doesn't apply only to those who share your values and, further, conceive them the way you do, for you will be making mockery of tolerance & freedom, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values.
    It's fascinating that what is worn by less than 0.01% of Frances population is could become such a major issue. If you do not like what we wear then fine but do attempt to speak for me or my kind by telling me I am oppressed and forcing your presumptions about what I wear and what I should wear on me.


    Welcome to the board and by the way, you're full of shit. Give some thought to the possibility that so much of what you call 'Islamophobia' might actually be based on disdain for many of the horribly bigoted and oppressively sexist traditions that seem to flourish in many of those theocratical Islamic societies. Also, I am under no obligation to pretend that all cultural practices are equally valid. So maybe if said cultures could stop stoning women to death for getting raped or forcing them to wear bee keeper suits in 100 degree heat you just might see less of this so-called Islamophobia you speak of.
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    Elite Member Quazar's Avatar
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    How is a burka not a security risk? You need to be able to see people's faces for identity reasons. Any country has the right to demand that within their own borders.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I don't recognize, tolerate, or accept the oppression of women in any way, shape, or form. Burkas and all the rest have nothing to do with religion, nowhere in the Qu'ran does it state that women must be covered from head to toe to preserve her "modesty".

    It's cultural and tribal nonsense, foisted upon women by men, and as such the rest of the countries of the world do not have to accept it within their borders.

    here's a test to see if you are really free: walk down the street in the nation of your birth and/or the nation of your particular culture without your burka (or other all encompassing robe of oppression) and see what happens.

    If nothing happens, you're free. If you are assaulted in any way (verbally, physically, psychologically) then you aren't free and your dress is a symbol of your oppression.

    I'll wait for your answer.
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    Elite Member sprynkles's Avatar
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    So maybe if said cultures could stop stoning women to death for getting raped or forcing them to wear bee keeper suits in 100 degree heat you just might see less of this so-called Islamophobia you speak of.

    Bravo.

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    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    Welcome to the board and by the way, you're full of shit. Give some thought to the possibility that so much of what you call 'Islamophobia' might actually be based on disdain for many of the horribly bigoted and oppressively sexist traditions that seem to flourish in many of those theocratical Islamic societies. Also, I am under no obligation to pretend that all cultural practices are equally valid. So maybe if said cultures could stop stoning women to death for getting raped or forcing them to wear bee keeper suits in 100 degree heat you just might see less of this so-called Islamophobia you speak of.
    You are absolutely right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I don't recognize, tolerate, or accept the oppression of women in any way, shape, or form. Burkas and all the rest have nothing to do with religion, nowhere in the Qu'ran does it state that women must be covered from head to toe to preserve her "modesty".

    It's cultural and tribal nonsense, foisted upon women by men, and as such the rest of the countries of the world do not have to accept it within their borders.

    here's a test to see if you are really free: walk down the street in the nation of your birth and/or the nation of your particular culture without your burka (or other all encompassing robe of oppression) and see what happens.

    If nothing happens, you're free. If you are assaulted in any way (verbally, physically, psychologically) then you aren't free and your dress is a symbol of your oppression.


    I'll wait for your answer.
    Excellent post and I'll be waiting for the answer as well.

    Britain needs to grow a pair and ban the burka.


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    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    [quote=Wiseguy;2191279] You are absolutely right.



    Excellent post and I'll be waiting for the answer as well.

    Britain needs to grow a pair and ban the burka.[/quote]

    Yes. I'm so tired of all this cowardice disguised as cultural sensitivity.
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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumaya View Post
    Islamophobia is Islamophobia. Dont hide behind security and the rights of women in another faith to hide your bigotry.
    liberty and democracy should denote that your tolerance doesn't apply only to those who share your values and, further, conceive them the way you do, for you will be making mockery of tolerance & freedom, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values.
    It's fascinating that what is worn by less than 0.01% of Frances population is could become such a major issue. If you do not like what we wear then fine but do attempt to speak for me or my kind by telling me I am oppressed and forcing your presumptions about what I wear and what I should wear on me.
    do you really think the burka isn't a symbol of oppression? jesus, every moderate muslim i know agrees that it is, i can't think of anyone except extremists who doesn't.
    tolerance and respect is one thing but not when it puts others at risk. sikhs aren't allowed to wear their daggers when travelling on planes even though their religion demands they wear it all the time, they are willing to remove it to comply with security regulations. walking around with your face covered is a security risk. doesn't matter if it's 0.01% or 1% or 10% of the population that wears it, the fact remains you can't tell who's under there.

    also, security concerns aside, yes, tolerance of other cultures and religions is a good thing - in moderation. the fact is, just because something pertains to a certain culture or religion doesn't mean it's a good thing. there is such a thing as a harmful cultural practice and the burka is one of them. as is female genital mutilation. and just because a huge percentage of women in (mostly) africa are mutilated and it's part of their culture, does this mean western countries should be tolerant and respectful of their culture and allow immigrants from these countries to continue to practice this barbaric custom on their daughters? fuck no. the burka is imposed on women by the most extremist islamic regimes. there are a few women who are so oppressed they continue to wear this once they move to the west (or who are so brainwashed and stupid they have deluded themselves into thinking it's their choice and that the burka really 'liberates' women or some such nonsense). either way, no matter which way you cut it, women in these cultures are not equal. and western countries for the most part are secular and equality of the sexes is enshrined in the law. ergo, the burka has no place in a truly democratic and egalitarian society.
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    Elite Member Sarzy's Avatar
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    It's a shame but I can't see Britain ever banning it. I'd love it if we did though for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. Britain pussyfoots around these kind of issues too much, it's sad and annoying.

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    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    do you really think the burka isn't a symbol of oppression? jesus, every moderate muslim i know agrees that it is, i can't think of anyone except extremists who doesn't.
    tolerance and respect is one thing but not when it puts others at risk. sikhs aren't allowed to wear their daggers when travelling on planes even though their religion demands they wear it all the time, they are willing to remove it to comply with security regulations. walking around with your face covered is a security risk. doesn't matter if it's 0.01% or 1% or 10% of the population that wears it, the fact remains you can't tell who's under there.

    also, security concerns aside, yes, tolerance of other cultures and religions is a good thing - in moderation. the fact is, just because something pertains to a certain culture or religion doesn't mean it's a good thing. there is such a thing as a harmful cultural practice and the burka is one of them. as is female genital mutilation. and just because a huge percentage of women in (mostly) africa are mutilated and it's part of their culture, does this mean western countries should be tolerant and respectful of their culture and allow immigrants from these countries to continue to practice this barbaric custom on their daughters? fuck no. the burka is imposed on women by the most extremist islamic regimes. there are a few women who are so oppressed they continue to wear this once they move to the west (or who are so brainwashed and stupid they have deluded themselves into thinking it's their choice and that the burka really 'liberates' women or some such nonsense). either way, no matter which way you cut it, women in these cultures are not equal. and western countries for the most part are secular and equality of the sexes is enshrined in the law. ergo, the burka has no place in a truly democratic and egalitarian society.
    This was a really good post. I admit that I go back and forth on this issue, playing the devil's advocate, because I'm not sure how far I'm willing to let any government decide what its citizens cannot wear privately. I totally get it in a security context, it's a huge risk and shouldn't be allowed in public buildings, but I'm not sure if I can trust the government dictating what you can wear on your own time, etc. That said, that was a phenomenal post and the other side of the coin for me. And the Muslims I know detest the burka, it is a cultural practice instead of a religious one and the Muslims I associate with would do anything to see it eradicated. It reflects so badly on the religion and is never mentioned in the Koran.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    You are absolutely right.



    Excellent post and I'll be waiting for the answer as well.

    Britain needs to grow a pair and ban the burka.
    It will when its as racist as the US.
    When is the US banning the burka?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarzy View Post
    It's a shame but I can't see Britain ever banning it. I'd love it if we did though for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. Britain pussyfoots around these kind of issues too much, it's sad and annoying.
    If they do, they should ban wearing of all religious symbols, including crosses, etc. And I doubt that they will do that.

    Y'all forgetting that France traditionally (since the revolution) has separated church & state - much as the US does. Other countries (like the UK) don't.



    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    This was a really good post. I admit that I go back and forth on this issue, playing the devil's advocate, because I'm not sure how far I'm willing to let any government decide what its citizens cannot wear privately. I totally get it in a security context, it's a huge risk and shouldn't be allowed in public buildings, but I'm not sure if I can trust the government dictating what you can wear on your own time, etc. That said, that was a phenomenal post and the other side of the coin for me. And the Muslims I know detest the burka, it is a cultural practice instead of a religious one and the Muslims I associate with would do anything to see it eradicated. It reflects so badly on the religion and is never mentioned in the Koran.
    Great post January. However, I'm sure that you will also agree that there is an incredible amount of Islamaphobia. A lot of it based purely on skin colour....
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