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Thread: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Exclamation Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    They even signed a manifesto...

    After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new totalitarian global threat: Islamism.

    We, writers, journalists, intellectuals, call for resistance to religious totalitarianism and for the promotion of freedom, equal opportunity and secular values for all.

    The recent events, which occurred after the publication of drawings of Muhammad in European newspapers, have revealed the necessity of the struggle for these universal values. This struggle will not be won by arms, but in the ideological field. It is not a clash of civilizations or an antagonism of West and East that we are witnessing, but a global struggle that confronts democrats and theocrats.

    Like all totalitarianisms, Islamism is nurtured by fears and frustrations. The hate preachers bet on these feelings in order to form battalions destined to impose a liberticidal and unegalitarian world.

    But we clearly and firmly state: nothing, not even despair, justifies the choice of obscurantism, totalitarianism and hatred. Islamism is a reactionary ideology which kills equality, freedom and secularism wherever it is present. Its success can only lead to a world of domination: man's domination of woman, the Islamists' domination of all the others. To counter this, we must assure universal rights to oppressed or discriminated people.

    We reject "cultural relativism," which consists of accepting that men and women of Muslim culture should be deprived of the right to equality, freedom and secular values in the name of respect for cultures and traditions. We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of "Islamophobia," an unfortunate concept which confuses criticism of Islam as a religion with stigmatization of its believers.

    We plead for the universality of freedom of expression, so that a critical spirit may be exercised on all continents, against all abuses and all dogmas.

    We appeal to democrats and free spirits of all countries that our century should be one of enlightenment, not of obscurantism.

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Chahla Chafiq,

    Caroline Fourest, Bernard-Henri LÚvy,

    Irshad Manji, Mehdi Mozaffari,

    Maryam Namazie, Taslima Nasreen,

    Salman Rushdie, Antoine Sfeir,

    Philippe Val, Ibn Warraq
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    We reject "cultural relativism," which consists of accepting that men and women of Muslim culture should be deprived of the right to equality, freedom and secular values in the name of respect for cultures and traditions. We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of "Islamophobia," an unfortunate concept which confuses criticism of Islam as a religion with stigmatization of its believers.
    Wow this part says it all, Muslim (men and women alike) MUST comply with "modern" secular values OR we are doomed to be called what, Islamist? Many predicted that what will happen, first our countries are invaded (thanks to our puppet Governments/leaders and lazy ass public) and now our religious values must change to meet 'globalized' values, values that are promoted by strong nations, nations that we dont have any common with. As long as these people continue singling out Islam as their enemy, Muslims and non-Muslims wont be able to communicate and co-exist peacefully, the gap between the civilizations will widen and hence terrorists mini cells and its sympathizers will grow even more!

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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    Quote Originally Posted by Karizma
    Wow this part says it all, Muslim (men and women alike) MUST comply with "modern" secular values
    I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people of whatever religion to refrain from indiscriminate violence and carnage in order to further their political or religious agenda. The fact that Islamists tend to use this method of persuasion inevitably leads people to feel that they might pose some kind of threat.
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    Um, Islam wasn't singled out until pretty recently and they've made a bunch of retarded noise in order to be singled out.

    Islam is stuck in the 7th century and needs to modernize. Equality is not something that should be supplanted in the name of religion, nor is freedom of expression. Moving to another nation and expecting your religious inequalities to trump the laws of the society that has embraced you is a no brainer.

    We reject "cultural relativism," which consists of accepting that men and women of Muslim culture should be deprived of the right to equality, freedom and secular values in the name of respect for cultures and traditions.
    They're saying that nobody should be deprived of this. They should have the choice. In a lot of places people don't, thanks to religion.

    I'm noticing an interesting trend, it always seems to be the worlds fault for not accepting the rather backwards and stangnant aspects of Islam (inequality, abuse, the whole cartoon stupidity) rather engage in some self reflection and reject these religious relics and condemn them to the century they should have stayed in.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    Well yeah these people pose threat, whoever emply violence for their idealogy is dangerous. I'm saying religious values, not some individuals' idealogy like Osama Bin Laden, these people who cause all the damage in Pakistan were about 1,000-2,000 while the population is over 160 million, so clearly they are minority.

    Plus i think its offensive itself to put Islam in comparison with Nazism and Fascism! I didnt hear anything about Zionism, Judaism, Evanglicalism, etc. They could've use Extremism as an indication to all those who use their extremist idealogy for greater power and dominations, but to single out Islam is pathetic.

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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    Well last I checked, Zionists aren't out to "destroy the infidel" and wipe any non-zionist from the face of the earth.. the evangelicals just want to make everyone believe in Jebus, and the Jews pretty much are locked in combat with the palestinians.

    The nutjob Islamists seem to be the ones with the more vocal "kill everyone who isn't muslim!" rhetoric.

    They make the most noise, they get singled out. It's not rocket science.

    I suppose that's someone elses fault, though.
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    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Um, Islam wasn't singled out until pretty recently and they've made a bunch of retarded noise in order to be singled out.

    Islam is stuck in the 7th century and needs to modernize. Equality is not something that should be supplanted in the name of religion, nor is freedom of expression. Moving to another nation and expecting your religious inequalities to trump the laws of the society that has embraced you is a no brainer.



    They're saying that nobody should be deprived of this. They should have the choice. In a lot of places people don't, thanks to religion.

    I'm noticing an interesting trend, it always seems to be the worlds fault for not accepting the rather backwards and stangnant aspects of Islam (inequality, abuse, the whole cartoon stupidity) rather engage in some self reflection and reject these religious relics and condemn them to the century they should have stayed in.
    And who are you to judge and call us backwards? Who gave you the right to be the Judge. As i said violence is one thing that is NOT used by Muslims only, look at US and their continious wars since World War, did anyone call US a barbaric country? the Tamil Buddhists who are responsible for more than 200 suicide attacks, was Buddhism and Buddhists called backward? Serbs for killing more than 250,000 Muslims in Bosnia and 750,000 in Kosovo, was orthodox Christians called savage people? Russia killing more than 30,000 Chechians in 1999! N Ireland where Catholics and Protestants fight for over half a century now?

    We dont give a shit about what some think of our traditions and values, yes we do have mistakes that should be fixed, but no one is perfect and to single out Islam only is sickning. Well if these cartoons were so damn lame, why didnt they joke about Jesus Christ (although forbifdden to us as well) or the Holocaust? Freedom of press and speech is allowed when it comes to Islam and not when it comes to Christianity and Judaism! It's funny when this double-standard policies come from so called democracies.

    Well last I checked, Zionists aren't out to "destroy the infidel" and wipe any non-zionist from the face of the earth.. the evangelicals just want to make everyone believe in Jebus, and the Jews pretty much are locked in combat with the palestinians
    .

    when was the last time you checked then? Zionism is about establishing a homeland over the expense of another people! Have you read quotes from Ben Gurion, Ariel Sharon, Natanyaho or even updated about Israel's actions? I'm sure you only know about Hamas!

    Evangelicals like Bush and his admin dont want everyone to believe in Jesus only, they are bombarding nations and threatning others, didnt he call the war in Afghanistan a "crusade"? Did you check what Ann Coulter said "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity" this woman is strong vocal for Evangelical beliefs. Many of them are enlisted in the army to be among the warmongers.

    The difference in fact those Islamist are inividuals who came together for similar idealogy, they dont lead a country or troops unlike those Zionists and Evangelicals who do control a country, media and troops. They are far more organized, influential and dangerous.

    I still stand firm to my opinion, they could've used Extremism to show their "innocent" intentions and since extremists from ALL religions are dangerous RATHER than singling out Islam.
    Last edited by Karizma; March 2nd, 2006 at 03:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    As I understand it, reforming Islam to reflect modern social and cultural values, without diluting or diminishing the original message of Islam is next to impossible for several reasons.
    1. Islam is based on the teachings of the Koran which is held to be infallible, unchangeable and God's Truth as revealed to the Prophet Mohammed. The Koran therefore cannot be reinterpreted or modified and neither, therefore, can it's teachings.
    2. Islam does not have a single spiritual 'leader' like the Pope or the Dalai Lama. There is no central hierarchy and no one person to whom Muslims can look for moral or religious guidance and therefore no-one who can initiate widespread reforms. It would have to be done by general concensus and we've seen how that's been working so far.
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    And who are you to judge and call us backwards? Who gave you the right to be the Judge.
    I give myself the right through observation. Inequality, oppression, intolerance, violence, inability to self analyze and blaming everyone around you for your own lack of responsibility in those areas is the hallmark of an unevolved belief system.. ANY BELIEF SYSTEM.

    I don't need anybody's permission to judge anything.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    As I understand it, reforming Islam to reflect modern social and cultural values, without diluting or diminishing the original message of Islam is next to impossible for several reasons.
    1. Islam is based on the teachings of the Koran which is held to be infallible, unchangeable and God's Truth as revealed to the Prophet Mohammed. The Koran therefore cannot be reinterpreted or modified and neither, therefore, can it's teachings.
    You know what Islam in its true nature is moderate, what we have now in countries like Saudi Arabia and mini cells are the re-interpretations by the Wahhbi and Salafi movements. The frighting thing are the re-interpretations of verses, the same verse that i can use to spread peace can be turned around by guys like Osama bin Laden, they are re-interpreted to serve their idealogy.

    2. Islam does not have a single spiritual 'leader' like the Pope or the Dalai Lama. There is no central hierarchy and no one person to whom Muslims can look for moral or religious guidance and therefore no-one who can initiate widespread reforms. It would have to be done by general concensus and we've seen how that's been working so far.
    very true and we speak here of the Sunni branch, the Shitte have AyatoAllah like Khomeni and now Khaman'ei. Thats why Muslims of Malaysia and Indonesia are different from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, Tunisia from Yemen and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    I give myself the right through observation. Inequality, oppression, intolerance, violence, inability to self analyze and blaming everyone around you for your own lack of responsibility in those areas is the hallmark of an unevolved belief system.. ANY BELIEF SYSTEM.

    I don't need anybody's permission to judge anything.
    The reason i asked because you sounded really offended by JP2 judgment and criticism on abortion and/or homosexuality, hence i thought you dont tend to judge or generalize a whole kind.

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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    They singled out Islam..but there is a point for inclusion of fanatical fundamentalist Christians..they certainly have a history of trying to take over the world and "Christianize" it, don't they. Right now in some aspects they are only a few steps behind the radical "Islamists"..what with bombing abortion clinics, cutting back abortion rights, rantings of crazies like Mann Coulter and Pat Robertson. Millions of Americans actually think like these two and agree with them. The "Islamists" may be leading the pack right now, but increasing religious fundamentalism and theocratic beliefs overall are on the rise and are a threat to freedom in general.

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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    The reason i asked because you sounded really offended by JP2 judgment and criticism on abortion and/or homosexuality, hence i thought you dont tend to judge or generalize a whole kind.
    There's a difference: I'm not trying to label people as evil and have them wiped from the earth, nor am I trying to make sure the planet is overpopulated.

    I get labelled a part of "the overarching ideology of evil" because of a religious opinion, based on nothing. It's unadulterated bigotry based on some silly fairy tale in a book.

    I'm critical of things I can observe that have rational explanations behind them.

    They singled out Islam..but there is a point for inclusion of fanatical fundamentalist Christians..they certainly have a history of trying to take over the world and "Christianize" it, don't they. Right now in some aspects they are only a few steps behind the radical "Islamists"..what with bombing abortion clinics, cutting back abortion rights, rantings of crazies like Mann Coulter and Pat Robertson. Millions of Americans actually think like these two and agree with them. The "Islamists" may be leading the pack right now, but increasing religious fundamentalism and theocratic beliefs overall are on the rise and are a threat to freedom in general.
    That's why it needs to be wiped from the earth. Religious sterilization. It's too dangerous to be left intact even if a good chunk of its adherents are peacible.

    If I could, I would. It's caused too much horror.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita
    They singled out Islam..but there is a point for inclusion of fanatical fundamentalist Christians..they certainly have a history of trying to take over the world and "Christianize" it, don't they. Right now in some aspects they are only a few steps behind the radical "Islamists"..what with bombing abortion clinics, cutting back abortion rights, rantings of crazies like Mann Coulter and Pat Robertson. Millions of Americans actually think like these two and agree with them. The "Islamists" may be leading the pack right now, but increasing religious fundamentalism and theocratic beliefs overall are on the rise and are a threat to freedom in general.
    Exactly and that's why they should've said 'Extremism' whatever it relateds to, let it be to religion, idealogy, secularism, communism, and so on. But with their approach they are singling out one religion and hence its followers and label them as the 'enemy'.

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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    No, they're singling out the Islamic nutjobs who are FAR more dangerous than any other kind so far.
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    Gold Member Karizma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Famous authors denounce "Islamism" as fascism of the 21st century

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    There's a difference: I'm not trying to label people as evil and have them wiped from the earth, nor am I trying to make sure the planet is overpopulated.

    I get labelled a part of "the overarching ideology of evil" because of a religious opinion, based on nothing. It's unadulterated bigotry based on some silly fairy tale in a book.

    I'm critical of things I can observe that have rational explanations behind them.
    But he didnt call for their elimination either, he judged their behaviour which he found as corrupted and immoral based on his reflection and observation of his Holy Book. I've been judged as 'backward' based on your observation of Muslims, even though i you might not know anything about Islam apart from what your media chose to show you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    No, they're singling out the Islamic nutjobs who are FAR more dangerous than any other kind so far.
    well the last time i checked mass graves, use of nukes, use of chemical and biological weapons on civilians, invasions, and ethnic cleansing which happened in the last century have been caused MOSTLY by Christians in Europe and US.

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