Assimilate or go home - discuss

[A*O]

The Melbourne Age, 24 Feb 2006

Anyone who believes Islamic sharia law can co-exist with Australian law should move to a country where they feel more comfortable, Treasurer Peter Costello says.

All Australian citizens must adhere to the framework in society which maintains tolerance and protects the rights and liberties of all, he said.

It is a pre-condition for citizenship of Australia.

Mr Costello was giving a speech on the meaning of Australian citizenship to the Sydney Institute.

"There is one law we are all expected to abide by," Mr Costello said.

"It is the law enacted by the parliament under the Australian constitution.

"If you can't accept that, then you don't accept the fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for."

Mr Costello, the son of a Methodist lay preacher and who was raised a Baptist, emphasised that Australia is a secular state under which the freedom of all religions is protected.

"But there is not a separate stream of law derived from religious sources that competes with or supplants Australian law in governing our civil society," he said.

"The source of our law is the democratically elected legislature.

"There are countries that apply religious or sharia law - Saudi Arabia and Iran come to mind.

"If a person wants to live under sharia law these are countries where they might feel at ease.

"But not Australia."

Mr Costello said there were some beliefs and values which were so central to Australian society that those who refused to accept them refused to accept the nature of Australian society.

"If someone cannot honestly make the citizenship pledge, they cannot honestly take out citizenship," he said.

"If they have taken it out already they should not be able to keep it where they have citizenship in some other country."

It was more difficult for those born in Australia or who had no dual citizenship, Mr Costello said.

"In these cases, we have on our hands citizens who are apparently so alienated that they do not support what their country stands for," he said.

"Such alienation could become a threat to the rights and liberties of others.

"And so it is important to explain our values, explain why they are important and engage leadership they respect to assist us in this process.

"Ultimately, however, it is important that they know that there is only one law and it is going to be enforced whether they acknowledge its legitimacy or not."

[Hazeleyed_Honey]

So,I guess there is a debate now in Australia going on about Sharia Law in Australia?

The Muslim community in these countries I think d onot want to issue complete laws but put in place more like tribunals. Well, I do not believe in religion mixing with politics and the state.

But from my understanding these tribunals of these other religions tend to be different than actual religious law system implemented back where they came from.

In Australia, do they have Jewish or Hindu tribunals?

[Grimmlok]

One law for all, if you can't abide by the rules in whatever country you are trying to move to, then don't move there.

Frankly, I think melding religion and government is idiotic and I think its equally idiotic for people to try and bring that to a new land from whatever theocracy they came from, and then scream in indignancy when they can't have their way.

You can bring your culture but it has to integrate into the fabric of the place you're going to. Clinging to your old way of life in its entirety will not work.

Either add your ethnicity to the tapistry already living together peacably and share the fruits of the differences, or piss off back to whatever priest/mullah/cleric ruled country you came from.

[SVZ]

We had an issue like this in Ontario/Canada I believe a while ago. Basically the decision was no Shariah Law...which I agree with.

[Grimmlok]

The decision was that Sharia law was just too repressive and tended to be abused to the detriment of women, so they banned it, and got rid of all other religious arbitration too, cuz that was the fair thing to do.

One law for all. Deal with it, or piss off.

[snakebread]

It's wonderful that an Australian official can actually say that (and presumably not get fired?) In the US, everyone THINKS the exact same thing, but we can't say it because of political correctness.

It totally makes sense. If you're all about oppressing women and gays, stay with a country that does that. Don't try to ruin other, enlightened countries for everyone. The only problem is when there's a demographic shift over hundreds of years as (again) in the US where we were founded on escaping religious sh*t and now, stupidly, we HAVE a religious sh*t running the country. Can we kick Bush out based on the theory that he doesn't fit with our country's vision? I'd be the first to plant my foot in his arse.

[A*O]

The situation here is that we have a large Muslim community - most of whom are law abiding, honest, peaceful citizens who practice their religion in total freedom and who are, of course, at liberty to do so. Australia is a secular country and the 'church' and state are totally separate. HOWEVER, there is a subculture of Islamic fundamentalism and in large cities we are seeing the 'ghettoisation' of, for example, Lebanese communities, many of whom came here 3 generations ago as refugees, and who have resolutely resisted assimilating into the wider Australian way of life and community. These people are Australian citizens by birth, but do not seem willing to participate in the general Aussie Way Of Life which naturally causes suspicion and resentment in the wider community. The young men in particular are uneducated, unemployed (and unemployable) with a HUGE chip on their shoulder about their lot in life, but peer pressure often prevents them from moving away from what their 'culture' demands so we have gangs of angry young men roaming the streets looking for trouble. It is these people who Peter Costello (our Treasurer and some say future PM) is referring to and [ducks and covers] I think he has a point.

[deckchick]

A*O, Canada and Australia share a similar situation with our aboriginals. here in Canada they are allowed to apply to a Native run Justice system. I believe you guys have the same there, please correct me if I am wrong.

What is your opinion of the Aboriginals? Are they well treated as a whole or are they too isolated on some reservation to live a truly horrid life? This is the most common type of reservation. That being said, there are also many prosperous and highly functioning reservations too.

[pacific breeze]

I think those are two seperate issues. Aboriginals were here BEFORE us, it's not like they immigrated to Oz or Canada. I'm curious why you think they couldn't live a horrid life on a isolated reserve, because the statistics are truly frightening in those places. No decent water, inadequate housing, no facilities, no medicine, HUGE drug and alcohol abuse, etc. etc. etc. The UN has had some pretty harsh things to say about human rights and aboriginals in Canada, not to mention the Third World conditions most live in.

There are a handful of successful reserves, but they are not without social problems of all descriptions. Aboriginals have the highest incidence of AIDS' infection and suicide in Canada. Suicide is the #1 cause of death among young aboriginals. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Also, they're not called reservations in Canada, that's an American term. They're called reserves. And that very notion is excluding and isolating in itself.

[WickedHo]

Originally Posted by Grimmlok

One law for all. Deal with it, or piss off.

Can I please have this in T-shirt form? Thanks, you're a peach!

Other than that, I have nothing to add to the debate. Because it's pretty obvious to me: the law of the land is the law of the land, no matter where you are. If you don't like the law, take your ass back home.

[Sojiita]

These same questions have been being asked forever..here in the US it has always been this way..When the wave of German immigrants came(with the language),when the Irish came"they will never assimilate", then when the eastern Europeans and jew came "Europe is vomiting on our shores". We have always been very diverse..it is only when immigration slowed and 'mass culture" developed after the first World War that a mass culture really developed. Now immigration is up(hispanic) and the same old things come up..the same kind of cries and complaints(as to foreign languages, there was an uproar when it was revealed about a hundred years ago that New York's leading newspaper was not in English). Now we just have the added problem of a new religion in some areas(Islam). Things will work themselves out, and nations do change and develop along lines that are different than before. As for Australia, being an "Aussie" is defined by not only content but also time-what may legitimately be "Aussie" 50 years from now may be very different from today's "Aussie".
Will agree though that with Democracies you really have to draw the line somewhere-I guess when a nation stops becoming a democracy and falls under theocracy (Iran) or Totalitarian dictatorship(the USA ) then that is where the line must be drawn.

[A*O]

It's unusual, however, for a senior politician to tread on such thin ice by actually SAYING what 99% of us are thinking.

PB is right. The issue of whether or not modern migrants assimilate into their 'host' culture is different to the situation of aboriginal people who were here BEFORE the original white settlers arrived. In the case of Australian aboriginals (kouri) their place in Australia today is for the most part dispossessed, marginalised and ignored. It started right from the earliest days of European settlement when the kouri were confronted with a culture and value system which was, and still is, totally alien. They are fundamentally passive, peaceful people and unfortunately have been unable to deal with the overwhelming pressures of 'white' culture and lifestyle and as a result have struggled to participate as equals in modern Australia - hence the chronic health problems, substance abuse (resulting in horrendous domestic violence), unemployment, extreme poverty, social isolation and lawlessless. They do not share the same value systems as the White Fella and this culture clash continues to put them at a huge disadvantage. The Govt does try to give assistance with education, healthcare, etc, but it can be a thankless task when dealing with a section of our society who until very recently were treated with extreme racism, prejudice and suspicion. Naturally, they have chosen to withdraw from the wider community and so the vicious circle continues.

[Sojiita]

^^That is a good point you made: the cultures which choose not to or unable to assimilate are at a distinct disadvantage. Usually the groups that can assimilate to a certain degree prosper and change the "main" culture but are themselves also changed by the interaction itself-usually it is a good change for all. Especially for the groups that choose not to assimilate(like the Lebanese immigrants you described) they just become increasingly marginalized and end up "in the dustbin of history". It is sad for those who want to assimilate and are prevented from doing so. For those who refuse, well...so goes it. Sometimes there can be peaceful co-existance(there are more Amish in Ohio than any other state and they do very well-but have assimilated alot in some ways to be honest)...other times the group that sets itself apart eventually simply self-destructs. Better hope the economies of south east asia don't meltdown or dinner in Darwin will be with soy sauce!

[pacific breeze]

Mystery writer/novelist James Lee Burke wrote in one of his novels that if you ever want to know what happens to an utterly defeated people, drive through an Indian reserve/reservation and you will learn all you need to know.

[Sojiita]

Originally Posted by pacific breeze

Mystery writer/novelist James Lee Burke wrote in one of his novels that if you ever want to know what happens to an utterly defeated people, drive through an Indian reserve/reservation and you will learn all you need to know.

From what I understand Native American(or whatever the "correct" name is)
have been actually having conditions improve..In some ways casino gambling has paid off(I am sure in many ways it has not as well). I think statistically the rock bottom was more than a few decades ago and that poverty and alcoholism among other things had decreased. Not a great picture overall but a hell of alot better then 75 years ago all considered. Also there has been an emergence of pride of culture..people are proud to say they have "indian blood" in them or claim tribal status. Sometimes it is hard to see progress when it comes so slowly and unsteadiy but a hard honest look at the not-too-distant past can sure be a reminder of progress that has been made.