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Thread: President Nicolas Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France

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    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Default President Nicolas Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France

    Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France - Yahoo! News

    PARIS – President Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France, calling the full-body religious gown a sign of the "debasement" of women.
    In the first presidential address to parliament in 136 years, Sarkozy faced critics who fear the burqa issue could stigmatize France's Muslims and said he supported banning the garment from being worn in public.
    "In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause at the Chateau of Versailles, southwest of Paris.
    "The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."
    Dozens of legislators have called for creating a commission to study a possible ban in France, where there is a small but growing trend of wearing the full-body garment despite a 2004 law forbidding it from being worn in public schools.
    France has Western Europe's largest Muslim population, an estimated 5 million people, and the 2004 law sparked fierce debate both at home and abroad.
    Even the French government has been divided over the issue, with Immigration Minister Eric Besson saying a full ban would only "create tensions," while junior minister for human rights Rama Yade said she was open to a ban if it was aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burqa.
    The terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably in France. The former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes, whereas the latter is a full-body veil, often in black, with slits for the eyes.
    A leading French Muslim group, the French Council for the Muslim Religion, has warned against studying the burqa, saying it would "stigmatize" Muslims.
    Sarkozy was due to host a state dinner Monday with Sheik Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani of Qatar, where women wear Islamic head coverings in public — whether while shopping or driving cars.

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    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    This is going to blow up in Sarkozy's face. The motives are good, but it's going to backfire.

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    The burqa or hijab or niqab or whatever aren't religious symbols at all, they're stupid cultural ones. It's the equivalent of wearing wooden clogs, it's just the patriarchal retardation of the cultures in question always twist a female subservience symbol into something jebus or mohammed orders them to wear.
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    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    All religions fall into the category of turning cultural rituals into religious dogma. And the problem that France is going to run into by trying to ban burgas is that a lot of Muslims, especially hardliners, will see it as an attack on Islam.

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    Good for him, I agree with him.

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    ^^^
    Me too.

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    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    He's a brave man and I agree with him 100%

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    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    All religions fall into the category of turning cultural rituals into religious dogma. And the problem that France is going to run into by trying to ban burgas is that a lot of Muslims, especially hardliners, will see it as an attack on Islam.
    Many progressive Muslims see the burqa itself as an attack on Islam and are repulsed by it. I'm of mixed feelings here - I think that people should be free to wear whatever they want, regardless of how stupid I feel it is. I'm not sure if I agree with a government telling someone they cannot wear something. On the other hand, I think the burka is a dehumanizing invention made to debase women and I'm absolutely disgusted by it. I'm not however against the hijab in any way if its worn as a personal decision, I'm not sure why they threw that in there about Qatar. I just cannot believe that any woman in the right frame of mind would agree to wear the burka, it just has to be something that is imposed upon them, so I really feel torn about this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    He's a brave man and I agree with him 100%

    Ditto. Now let's wait for the riots...
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    Elite Member calcifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    I'm not sure if I agree with a government telling someone they cannot wear something.
    wearing the burqa is forbidden in a couple of towns here because there is a strict rule that everyone's face needs to be visible (for identification purposes) at all times in public places. so in that context, i can agree with the government interfering in what you can or cannot wear. (hijabs are allowed.)

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    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Anyone can hide in a burka. Not talking terrorists here-any male can put on one,go into the ladies room & hide until a victim comes in.
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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    i agree. but then i agree with the headscarf ban in turkey and france as well.
    that said, i can't stand sarkozy. he is the original Poison Dwarf.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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    I'm not a fan of the burka at all, but this is outrageous. Just because I don't agree with how something can be used doesn't mean it's not a religious symbol. There are much better ways to attack the oppression of women in France living in muslim communities than to blanketly ban what to SOME may be thier choice. I don't want any government telling people what to wear - that includes countries who require that women cover thier heads as well as those that ban it. All this ban would mean is that women from already strict and oppressive families will either have to move back to the even more oppressive environment from which they emigrated (assuming they're immigrants or second or third gen.) or they will have fewer opportunities to leave thier house and expirience the freedoms of a non-oppressive society because they are not allowed on the street in a burka, and religiously or culturally cannot leave the house without one.

    It's a really fucking stupid solution that does nothing to fix the problem. In addition, it's a direct attack on freedom of religion.

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^
    there's the security issue too.
    many places in europe already have centuries-old laws banning the wearing of masks on all days except carnival. they exist for a reason. anyone can commit a crime wearing a mask, and it makes it harder to identify them. the same goes for a burqa.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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    Silver Member sparklehead's Avatar
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    There is a big difference between a general ban on masks (which I still think is stupid, but whatever) for a purpose that is facially neutral and pointedly taking aim at religious expression (disparate impact v. disprate intent.)

    I have never heard of one major crime in which burkas were used to disguise the perpetrators. Granted, I don't live in France, and maybe that kind of crime is rampant. It seems a huge over reaction to what doesn't seem to be too big of a problem (if we're talking solely about the problem of disguised identity for the purpose of crime.)

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