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Thread: Question about abortion

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    Default Question about abortion

    Hi guys
    I am pro choice and I have to write 1 question that I would pose to a pro lifer for university (it's a logics and society class that I took for fun but turned out to be incredibly hard, I should just stick to physics) The question has to be original and this is what I came up with, tell me if you like it and if it makes sense to you.

    From what I understand most people that are pro life also agree that if a woman has been raped she should have the right to an abortion. If you compare that to a case where a woman got pregnant by accident you will find that the standing of the fetus is the same. Because the fetus does not chose to enter the woman that choice is made for it. So then does it not become a matter of restricting women's rights rather than extending laws for unborn babies.

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    Elite Member sparkly's Avatar
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    It's a good question! Although most of the pro lifers that I've met don't believe women should have an abortion even if they are raped. Hopefully a pro lifer can come in here and explain it better.
    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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    Elite Member Penny Lane's Avatar
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    I gets kind of unintelligible around this part..

    If you compare that to a case where a woman got pregnant by accident you will find that the standing of the fetus is the same.
    You might want to clarify what you mean by "the standing of the fetus is the same"... do you mean the situation it is in? The fact that it was an (by definition) accident?

    Because the fetus does not chose to enter the woman that choice is made for it. So then does it not become a matter of restricting women's rights rather than extending laws for unborn babies.
    Just a few grammatical and punctuation stuff that kind of muddle what you're asking... but I get the gist of it. I think if you asked this to a pro-lifer they might give you an answer that would be along the lines of the fact that babies can't exercise their legal rights from within the womb so it's the direct legislative action efforts of the anti-abortion leagues that try to consolidate that by focusing purely on the mothers actions, which, by extension, have an effect on the unborn babies actions (well, according to their argument at least)... do you get what I'm saying? I'm not very articulate right now.. finals have zapped my brain. The class sounds interesting! Good luck!

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    I've talked to pro-lifers who are split on this. Some believe that a woman shouldn't get an abortion even if she's raped or her life's in danger. And some believe that those are the only two circumstances where an abortion might be justified. But they all believe that a woman should just either raise the baby or give it up for adoption. I always asked them 'are you going to adopt that baby?' They always say 'no.'

    But all of the pro-lifers I know are in full support of the death penalty, and so am I, but I'm pro-choice. And I always asked them how can you be pro-life and support the death penalty? They usually babble on about how one has nothing to do with the other, and then change the topic.

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    For me, it's about personal responsibility. Yes, I do believe the fetus is a life, but I feel that in a situation where a woman gets pregnant "by accident," there was a choice involved. Ultimately, she chose to put herself in a position where pregnancy was a possibility without being willing to accept that responsibility. I do not think you should be able to choose to have sex and then get an "abortion on demand" like a form of birth control. I feel that it leads to a culture of casual, unsafe sex and irresponsibility, and I don't like that.

    If a woman is raped, there was no choice in the matter for her. She became pregnant through no fault of her own and was not voluntarily putting herself in a situation in which that was a forseeable risk. Even in that situation, I believe the abortion should have to be performed within a very limited time frame. I oppose late term abortion in ALL scenarios.

    The death penalty is something I also strongly support, and again, it's about personal responsibility and holding people accountable for their actions. I also believe that some people are so dangerous and such a threat to society that they need to be destroyed.

    One thing that bothers me about the abortion issue is the fact that if you kill a pregnant woman, you can be charged with the murder of that woman AND of the unborn child. But if you choose to terminate your own fetus's life, you face no legal consequences.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
    For me, it's about personal responsibility. Yes, I do believe the fetus is a life, but I feel that in a situation where a woman gets pregnant "by accident," there was a choice involved. Ultimately, she chose to put herself in a position where pregnancy was a possibility without being willing to accept that responsibility.
    Pregnancy is always a possibility when having sex unless you're sterile.

    I do not think you should be able to choose to have sex and then get an "abortion on demand" like a form of birth control.
    Yes, but what happens when protection fails, the pill fails, and a few days later you figure out, oh crap, despite being responsible and taking appropriate precautions, you're pregnant?

    Should you just accept the inevitable and have a kid you neither want or may not be able to afford?

    Wait let me guess. Don't have sex at all unless you don't want to have kids, right? Close your legs, get back in the kitchen, how dare you be a sexual person, blah blah blah blah..

    I feel that it leads to a culture of casual, unsafe sex and irresponsibility, and I don't like that.
    Well for one, casual sex has been going on since the dawn of time. Secondly, who said it was unsafe? Precautions fail, EVEN WITH MARRIED PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT KIDS.

    Thirdly, if you don't want casual sex, don't have any. Stop trying to control other people or apply YOUR hang-ups to them.

    If a woman is raped, there was no choice in the matter for her. She became pregnant through no fault of her own and was not voluntarily putting herself in a situation in which that was a forseeable risk.
    What, wearing a short skirt isn't an invitation? Walking without her gentleman friend? Going out of the house?

    Even in that situation, I believe the abortion should have to be performed within a very limited time frame. I oppose late term abortion in ALL scenarios.
    Again, why do you insist on trotting that late-term abortion stuff out. Late term abortions account for roughly 1% of all performed, and 98% of the time it's because the mother's life is in danger.

    But hey, let her die on the table. That'll teach her for being a whore.

    The death penalty is something I also strongly support, and again, it's about personal responsibility and holding people accountable for their actions.
    I'm pro life, but support the death penalty! Oh the cry of the hypocrite. People only matter before they're born.

    I also believe that some people are so dangerous and such a threat to society that they need to be destroyed.
    Yes, and who gets to decide that?

    One thing that bothers me about the abortion issue is the fact that if you kill a pregnant woman, you can be charged with the murder of that woman AND of the unborn child. But if you choose to terminate your own fetus's life, you face no legal consequences.
    *sighs and rubs temples* always the same tired arguments shot down again and again, same stupid propaganda trotted out.. there's no education happening, just brainless ideology.
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    Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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    ^^He's good, very good!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkly View Post
    It's a good question! Although most of the pro lifers that I've met don't believe women should have an abortion even if they are raped. Hopefully a pro lifer can come in here and explain it better.
    I think it's pretty ridiculous to believe that even if a woman is raped she should carry the baby full term; I know that a lot of people claim that it might be "God's will", but then why remove a bullet from a person that has been shot. Maybe it's "God's will" that it is time for that person to die.

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    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    There's nothing wrong with believing that you shouldn't have sex unless you're prepared to face the possible ramifications of that act. Yes, I believe that if you absolutely don't want kids and can't care for them, you should exert some self control and not have sex.

    But I guess having self control and taking responsibility for one's actions instead of just acting out of impulse and then wanting a free pass when it's time to face the consequences of your decisions are too much to ask of people.

    If it's all about getting physical pleasure, there are other ways to do that. I don't feel sorry for people who voluntarily have sex and then end up with an "unwanted" pregnancy.

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    Here,Southernbelle. Catholic Mothers who have had to have late term abortions. These are not women who ever expected to have one,just like you. They do not deserve harsh judgement,but compassion. These are real stories,given to Congress. Please just read them and see what real anguish is for them.

    Late-Term Abortion
    www.discoveret.org/choicetn/late.term.html
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    Elite Member southernbelle's Avatar
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    I do have compassion for the mothers in the stories. When I said I oppose late term abortion in all scenarios, I should have clarified that I meant late term abortion by choice, whether the sex as a consensual decision or rape. I am against late term abortion for anyone who is 'undecided' or simply waits so long to do it that they end up choosing to abort the pregnancy, which would otherwise produce a healthy, normal baby, in the late second or third trimester.

    I don't judge people who are forced into this decision by a medical emergency, such as "Coreen".

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    I would like to point out that one does not have amniocentisis untill the 16th week. You dont receive the genetic information from it until the 18th week. The physiological ultrasound to check for defects is commonly performed between 20-22 weeks. My point is, you are well into the second trimester before you have the information that the baby has a defect. Now wouldn't you want a few days to think over what you want to do? So now your 24 weeks pregnant with a severely defective fetus. Whose business is it to tell you to have that fetus? Are those of you who are anti-choice prepared to help out physically and financially care for the rest of that childs life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by southernbelle View Post
    There's nothing wrong with believing that you shouldn't have sex unless you're prepared to face the possible ramifications of that act. Yes, I believe that if you absolutely don't want kids and can't care for them, you should exert some self control and not have sex.

    But I guess having self control and taking responsibility for one's actions instead of just acting out of impulse and then wanting a free pass when it's time to face the consequences of your decisions are too much to ask of people.

    If it's all about getting physical pleasure, there are other ways to do that. I don't feel sorry for people who voluntarily have sex and then end up with an "unwanted" pregnancy.
    This whole new catholic smell coming off you is getting old.

    People are responsible when they use protection. NO PROTECTION IS 100%. You're condemning people for having normal sex drives out of some puritanical obsessiveness, even though they take the necessary precautions. That's absurd.

    We also don't live in a fucking fairy tale la la land where people don't have sex unless they want children. Planet Earth is not CatholicLandŽ. Please realize this. The sexless utopia that you so fervently wish for WILL NOT EVER EXIST. The reality, where the rest of the planet lives, knows this.

    REALITY.

    PLEASE JOIN IT.

    WE HAVE PUNCH AND PIE.
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    If you don't intend to abort a defective foetus then it's pointless having the tests.

    While it's "nicer" to have an early abortion when the baby is a small bundle of cells instead of a recogniseable human being there is no moral distinction between the two. Just as there is no moral distinction between the state executing a serial axe murderer or a jaywalker.

    If you are pro-life, you can't make distinctions between a "good" life (baby) and a "bad" one (Ted Bundy).

    As for the original poster's debate question. I'm sure it's been used many times but it gets to the point:

    Your 12-yr old daughter is gang raped and becomes pregnant. She's a minor and so it's your choice what happens next. What will you do?
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