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Thread: Nurse refuses to perform CPR, citing policy and stress. Woman dies as result.

  1. #61
    Elite Member Fly_On_TheWall's Avatar
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    Why the hell does a independent living facility have a policy not to help someone in distress? Does that apply to residents choking? And are the residents aware of the policy? This facility needs to be looked into.God know, maybe they let someone choking die.
    Since when does being over a certain age mean that if you stop breathing, you're shit out of luck.

  2. #62
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — Relatives of an 87-year-old woman who died after a nurse at her retirement home refused a 911 dispatcher's pleas to perform CPR expressed satisfaction with the care she received, saying her wishes were to die naturally. Meanwhile, the company that owns the facility now says its worker failed to follow proper procedures.
    Lorraine Bayless' death last week at Glendale Gardens, a Bakersfield independent living facility, prompted outrage after a 7-minute recording of the 911 call was released. Brookdale Senior Living, which owns the facility, initially said its employee acted correctly by waiting until emergency personnel arrived. But late Tuesday, it issued a new statement saying the employee had misinterpreted the company's guidelines and was on voluntary leave while the case is investigated.
    "This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents," the Tennessee-based company said.
    Shortly before Brookdale's clarification, Bayless' family sent The Associated Press a statement saying she was aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff, but opted to live there anyway.
    ['They're gonna let her die': Transcript of 911 call released]
    "It was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life prolonging intervention," the family said. "We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens and is at peace."
    The family said it would not sue or try to profit from the death, and called it "a lesson we can all learn from."
    "We regret that this private and most personal time has been escalated by the media," the statement said.
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  3. #63
    Elite Member DeChayz's Avatar
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    I guess it all boils down to how you interpret "life prolonging intervention". To me, that's keeping someone on a ventilator, not performing a basic procedure like CPR.
    stef and MmeVertigina like this.

  4. #64
    Elite Member CornFlakegrl's Avatar
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    I'm hung up on the family's comments. It seems like they all knew this facility wouldn't perform any life saving procedures, and that's what she wanted.

    I think the facility is going to through the Director under the bus due to public outcry.

  5. #65
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeChayz View Post
    I guess it all boils down to how you interpret "life prolonging intervention". To me, that's keeping someone on a ventilator, not performing a basic procedure like CPR.
    I know a lot of you are not understanding this, but a very elderly person is frail. CPR is a vicious, no holds barred procedure.
    I have seen it done by a hospital staff on a 30 year old ski accident victim. He lived, but imagining the damage done to an elderly person makes me shudder. My elderly Mother has frail bones and skin that is like tissue paper.
    This woman had the wisdom to refuse this, her wishes were honored.
    I liked NBC's take on this incident. Use this and talk to your elders while they are here and before a situation arises.
    Know what they want and honor that. Get it in writing. Thank God my family has discussed this frankly years in advance.
    My sister and I know exactly what is expected of us.
    MmeVertigina likes this.
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  6. #66
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I have to respectfully disagree with you, McJag. I've completed a CPR class, and it involved breathing assistance and chest compression. People of all ages get revived all the time using those techniques. Or at least, they get oxygen and blood circulation until a trained EMT team can be on site and offer advanced assistance.

    Once again, I think crucial information about this particular woman's circumstances is missing. I'm a little weirded out by how "okay" the family is with everything. And quite frankly, if everybody was all in agreement about this situation, in terms of no life-prolonging intervention, why did they bother to call 911 in the first place?

  7. #67
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I have to respectfully disagree with you, McJag. I've completed a CPR class, and it involved breathing assistance and chest compression. People of all ages get revived all the time using those techniques. Or at least, they get oxygen and blood circulation until a trained EMT team can be on site and offer advanced assistance.

    Once again, I think crucial information about this particular woman's circumstances is missing. I'm a little weirded out by how "okay" the family is with everything. And quite frankly, if everybody was all in agreement about this situation, in terms of no life-prolonging intervention, why did they bother to call 911 in the first place?
    So have I had those classes. They were on a dummy. I promise you ER does it differently. They go at it full force. That dummy also does not have tissue paper skin that would tear in all directions.
    I AM that family. That is not weird at all. There comes a time when your years are numbered.Most people (and I suspect you) come to the conclusion that advanced years are the biggest factor in reaching that conclusion. Her wishes were followed. 911 was called in case her heart started on its own and she had a natural chance to recover. By herself. It does happen. Not for her.
    They would have called had she just been having chest pains, but this was different.
    My favorite Aunt just called. She had worked all day at the hospital as a volunteer. Then she had a pedicure and tried a new color. Why am I telling you this? She is 87. If this happens to her tonight I would be heartbroken and miss her forever. She also has just such an order. She has had a long and productive life. She wants to go out on top and I want that for her. Just like this family did. I understand.
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  8. #68
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    So have I had those classes. They were on a dummy. I promise you ER does it differently. They go at it full force. That dummy also does not have tissue paper skin that would tear in all directions.
    I'm sorry, but I disagree with that, too. I think that ER people people know not to crush the ribs or tear the skin of an elderly person they are trying to revive.

    From an ABC News article on this case:
    While a bias persists that the elderly might fare worse after a heart attack, studies find that an active 80-year-old who plays tennis, say, can better recover from cardiac arrest than a bedridden 50-year-old on dialysis.
    Injuring the patient also shouldn’t be a worry, even with a very old person, said Dr. Benjamin Abraham, director of the Division of Cardiovascular Medicine at Ohio State University.
    “With adequate or vigorous CPR, we may break a rib or two, but the benefit of doing that is to increase the likelihood of survival,” he told ABCNews.com.

    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    I AM that family. That is not weird at all. There comes a time when your years are numbered.Most people (and I suspect you) come to the conclusion that advanced years are the biggest factor in reaching that conclusion. Her wishes were followed. 911 was called in case her heart started on its own and she had a natural chance to recover. By herself. It does happen. Not for her. They would have called had she just been having chest pains, but this was different.
    I don't think we have enough facts in the case to know whether her wishes were followed. Especially given the fact that she did not have a do-not-resuscitate order on file.

  9. #69
    Elite Member OrangeSlice's Avatar
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    In my mind, I keep going back to what sluce said about the AED. There were other ways of giving the woman assistance other than performing CPR. I'm shocked they don't require AEDs at places like that, I know they do here and require everyone to be trained on them. The nurse didn't know whether or not the woman "wanted to die naturally". She just wasn't going to do anything to help either way.
    MmeVertigina likes this.
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  10. #70
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    I have an AED in my office and I have no reason to believe we will ever need it. Every police car in my township carries one. Every school and public building has them. They are inexpensive now, you don't even need training because they sell them with voice instructions when you turn it on. The goal is to get the heart started so they get oxygen. They can get a heart restarted once help arrives from 911, but if they have been without oxygen for too long the damage is already done.
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  11. #71
    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quazar View Post
    If anything, this thread has inspired to get off my ass and get my CPR certification.
    I'm CPR and AED trained - at my job. They offer the classes once a year and everyone here (1000'ish) are expected to know this shit. We have the AED equipment on every floor.
    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    I know a lot of you are not understanding this, but a very elderly person is frail. CPR is a vicious, no holds barred procedure.
    I have seen it done by a hospital staff on a 30 year old ski accident victim. He lived, but imagining the damage done to an elderly person makes me shudder. My elderly Mother has frail bones and skin that is like tissue paper.
    This woman had the wisdom to refuse this, her wishes were honored.
    I liked NBC's take on this incident. Use this and talk to your elders while they are here and before a situation arises.
    Know what they want and honor that. Get it in writing. Thank God my family has discussed this frankly years in advance.
    My sister and I know exactly what is expected of us.
    Hmm... well, I guess they definitely should not bother CPR on babies, huh? Flawed logic, McJag.
    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I have to respectfully disagree with you, McJag. I've completed a CPR class, and it involved breathing assistance and chest compression. People of all ages get revived all the time using those techniques. Or at least, they get oxygen and blood circulation until a trained EMT team can be on site and offer advanced assistance.

    Once again, I think crucial information about this particular woman's circumstances is missing. I'm a little weirded out by how "okay" the family is with everything. And quite frankly, if everybody was all in agreement about this situation, in terms of no life-prolonging intervention, why did they bother to call 911 in the first place?
    agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeSlice View Post
    In my mind, I keep going back to what sluce said about the AED. There were other ways of giving the woman assistance other than performing CPR. I'm shocked they don't require AEDs at places like that, I know they do here and require everyone to be trained on them. The nurse didn't know whether or not the woman "wanted to die naturally". She just wasn't going to do anything to help either way.
    NO shit!
    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    I have an AED in my office and I have no reason to believe we will ever need it. Every police car in my township carries one. Every school and public building has them. They are inexpensive now, you don't even need training because they sell them with voice instructions when you turn it on. The goal is to get the heart started so they get oxygen. They can get a heart restarted once help arrives from 911, but if they have been without oxygen for too long the damage is already done.
    And there are even razors in our AEDs at work in case of hairy men. We are told that once you rip that shirt off, if necessary, you shave the hairy bastard's chest and then zap him.
    Kill him.
    Kill her.
    Kill It.
    Kill everything... that IS the solution!
    П(•_•)П
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  12. #72
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1973 View Post
    And there are even razors in our AEDs at work in case of hairy men. We are told that once you rip that shirt off, if necessary, you shave the hairy bastard's chest and then zap him.
    Do they have sheep shears for someone like Sean Connery?


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    So have I had those classes. They were on a dummy. I promise you ER does it differently. They go at it full force. That dummy also does not have tissue paper skin that would tear in all directions.
    I AM that family. That is not weird at all. There comes a time when your years are numbered.Most people (and I suspect you) come to the conclusion that advanced years are the biggest factor in reaching that conclusion. Her wishes were followed. 911 was called in case her heart started on its own and she had a natural chance to recover. By herself. It does happen. Not for her.
    They would have called had she just been having chest pains, but this was different.
    My favorite Aunt just called. She had worked all day at the hospital as a volunteer. Then she had a pedicure and tried a new color. Why am I telling you this? She is 87. If this happens to her tonight I would be heartbroken and miss her forever. She also has just such an order. She has had a long and productive life. She wants to go out on top and I want that for her. Just like this family did. I understand.
    I am completely on the page with you.

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