Dutch woman charged with murder after having abortion in Spain when 27 weeks pregnant

[RevellingInSane]

That is insane! That was a viable fetus, so I can understand the prosecution. What next, abortions while the fetus is in the birth canal? Dumb bitch!

[sputnik]

while the woman's a cunt if she waited that long to make up her mind but i still don't think it's fair to be prosecuted for doing something that's legal in another country. and if there was a valid health reason for doing it, this is even more retarded.

[Aella]

Originally Posted by sputnik

while the woman's a cunt if she waited that long to make up her mind but i still don't think it's fair to be prosecuted for doing something that's legal in another country. and if there was a valid health reason for doing it, this is even more retarded.

Agreed. It's a legal issue rather than a moral one.

And even on the 'moral' ground, I refuse to draw conclusions without knowing all of the case's specifics.

[tee-ha-ha]

Originally Posted by KrisNine

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that she should be punished in her own country for doing something that was legal in another. I think she's a cow for waiting so long.

I agree, couldn't have put it better myself. She was wrong for waiting so long, but she shouldn't be punished by Dutch authorities for doing something in Spain that's legal in Spain.

[JerriBlank]

i read a paper on something similar to this before, although not dealing with abortions. pretty much authorities can prosecute crimes that happen in other countries if the act was initiated in their country. so by calling and making the appointment (presumably) from her hometown where she knew the abortion would not be legal, she initiated the crime. its called a continuing act crime or soemthing like that. the crime actually began when she booked the appointment/plane ticket, putting forth the motions required to achieve her goal. i can't remember all the details of it very well but it made sense at the time. ether the country that the act was initated in or the country that the act was commited in can prosecute (although in this case in spain no crime was committed here)

[yanna]

^Actually, this makes sense.

I know that I don't have the specifics and she probably would have made a crap parent anyway. It's just shocking because one of my co-workers is pregnant and at 6 months she was huge, the baby moving about and everything. I don't understand what they are on about in Spain, 27 weeks sounds extremely late. I could understand it if the baby had its organs outside its body, or something but not wanting to distress the woman this late into the pregnancy? What the fuck ever!

But that said, if I buy a ticket to Amsterdam can I be prosecuted for intending to smoke pot? (I think cannabis use is still penalised over here)

[JerriBlank]

^

[january]

That is a viable baby, thats absurd. That baby could live and breathe on its own. I find it a bit distressing also that the boyfriend appeared to have wanted the child, and she told him she lost it. So you carry a child for almost 7 months and then decide you don't want it, when your partner does? I know, I know, I hear this "its a woman's choice" stuff all the time, but sometimes I question the theory that the woman's partner has absolutely no say in it. Its not like she was a few months, she was just shy of 7 freaking months! When a baby is viable, thats when its a baby to me. I saw a report the other day on what they actually do regarding late term abortions, and it almost made me throw up. And I'm not even maternal, I don't want kids, I just can't believe someone would wait that long. Dumb bitch.

[Sarzy]

Well it is murder, so I don't exactly feel sorry for her. It's absolutely sick to have an abortion at that stage.

[roslyntaberfan]

WTF??!!! It was legal in Spain; the case is absolutely ridiculous. Haven't the Dutch police got anything better to do? Are they going to charge the doctor who did it, or the receptionist in Spain who booked the appointment?! I don't understand their logic.

[Delphinium]

Originally Posted by RevellingInSane

That is insane! That was a viable fetus, so I can understand the prosecution. What next, abortions while the fetus is in the birth canal? Dumb bitch!

actually that is exactly what a partial birth abortion is... an otherwise viable child goes thru the entire birthing process, just as it's head "crowns" the doctor shoves surgical scissors thru the top of the babies skull and sucks the brain out... so the baby is technically "born dead" as a baby isn't considered "born" until I believe the shoulders are delivered... it is sick and gruesome...

One has to wonder how a woman could go thru the birth etc... and "feel" the babies last movements as it's brain is sucked out... gross gross gross...

there is a point where things go too far, and late abortions are definitely way past that point for me..

Originally Posted by january

That is a viable baby, thats absurd. That baby could live and breathe on its own. I find it a bit distressing also that the boyfriend appeared to have wanted the child, and she told him she lost it. So you carry a child for almost 7 months and then decide you don't want it, when your partner does? I know, I know, I hear this "its a woman's choice" stuff all the time, but sometimes I question the theory that the woman's partner has absolutely no say in it. Its not like she was a few months, she was just shy of 7 freaking months! When a baby is viable, thats when its a baby to me. I saw a report the other day on what they actually do regarding late term abortions, and it almost made me throw up. And I'm not even maternal, I don't want kids, I just can't believe someone would wait that long. Dumb bitch.

personally I believe fathers should have equal rights in regards to abortions and births.. if they agree with an abortion they should have to sign an informed consent.. if they disagree then they should be willing to raise the child.. (many men would opt for this).. I also think men should be able to "opt out" of an unwanted pregnancy if they want an abortion and the woman disagrees... (thus the woman would raise the child).. give the pro-abortion party a legal right to "opt out" of the situation and incur no child support penalty but also have no further right to the offspring..

that way the end-result for the non-participating parent is basically the same and the child doesn't die... it wouldn't stop all abortions, but I believe more people would consider other options if they had them.

[Charlotte]

Originally Posted by Delphinium

actually that is exactly what a partial birth abortion is... an otherwise viable child goes thru the entire birthing process, just as it's head "crowns" the doctor shoves surgical scissors thru the top of the babies skull and sucks the brain out... so the baby is technically "born dead" as a baby isn't considered "born" until I believe the shoulders are delivered... it is sick and gruesome...

One has to wonder how a woman could go thru the birth etc... and "feel" the babies last movements as it's brain is sucked out... gross gross gross...

there is a point where things go too far, and late abortions are definitely way past that point for me..

No, that's completely wrong. D&X procedures (now banned in the US) were not performed when the fetus was going through the natural birthing process. They were extremely rare and accounted for less than 1% of all abortions (if i remember rightly). The vast majority, if not all, of them were used to end post 24 week otherwise wanted pregnancies which had gone horribly wrong - i.e the woman's life/ health was in extreme danger or the fetus was disabled (hydroencephalitis for example, requires a D&X because when the brain swells up to 20 inches in diameter there is no safer way to get the fetus out). I'm not going to condemn late term abotions because, while not pleasant, at times they are medically necessary. It's not right to ban surgery just because it's ugly to look at.

I also don't believe that men should dictate to women what they can do with their own bodies. Women have no right to force men to get vasectomies against their will and men should have no right to force a woman to gestate against her will. It's a matter of bodily integrity.

I can't see this woman being convicted of murder because what she did was legal in Spain. It seems insane to charge her.

[queenb3577]

Originally Posted by Delphinium

personally I believe fathers should have equal rights in regards to abortions and births.. if they agree with an abortion they should have to sign an informed consent.. if they disagree then they should be willing to raise the child.. (many men would opt for this).. I also think men should be able to "opt out" of an unwanted pregnancy if they want an abortion and the woman disagrees... (thus the woman would raise the child).. give the pro-abortion party a legal right to "opt out" of the situation and incur no child support penalty but also have no further right to the offspring..

that way the end-result for the non-participating parent is basically the same and the child doesn't die... it wouldn't stop all abortions, but I believe more people would consider other options if they had them.

Well, the problem with that is that men can't carry the pregnancy and give birth..

[tee-ha-ha]

Originally Posted by Delphinium

personally I believe fathers should have equal rights in regards to abortions and births.. if they agree with an abortion they should have to sign an informed consent.. if they disagree then they should be willing to raise the child.. (many men would opt for this).. I also think men should be able to "opt out" of an unwanted pregnancy if they want an abortion and the woman disagrees... (thus the woman would raise the child).. give the pro-abortion party a legal right to "opt out" of the situation and incur no child support penalty but also have no further right to the offspring..

that way the end-result for the non-participating parent is basically the same and the child doesn't die... it wouldn't stop all abortions, but I believe more people would consider other options if they had them.

To me, the father's "rights" end when he ejaculates inside a woman. He knows there's always the possibility of pregnancy as a result of sex. That's enough informed consent for them as far as I'm concerned.

[january]

Sooo....men have no rights when it comes to determining whether or not to have a child. But if the woman does have a child, he is forced to pay child support until the baby turns 18? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that men shouldn't pay child support - but men are screwed all around when it comes to this process because "its the woman's choice". I understand all the arguments but it does piss me off a little. There was a case not so long ago where a man took his ex-girlfriend to court because she wanted to have an abortion and he was pleading with her not to. He told her he would pay for absolutely everything, even give her extra money for time off of work, everything taken care of, and she never had to see them again. He wanted to raise that child. It got tied up in the court system. The verdict was passed down and she quickly had an abortion. Then it was reversed, but by that time the baby was gone. That doesn't seem right to me at all. If two people are involved with making a baby, it seems logical that they both should have some sort of say in whether it should be aborted/kept or not. It seems like fathers should have SOME sort of rights. I mean, they have financial obligations if they have a child, so why not have some sort of say? Its all so convoluted. And I know all the women will get pissed at me, and repeat the mantra that its a woman's body, yada yada yada. I got it. I understand. But it does piss me off sometimes. I guess my point is, if you choose to only see a man as a sperm donor, then why is he then considered a father after the fact if the woman chooses to have a child and he is held financially responsible? I'm kind of torn two ways on this.