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Thread: Denmark: Proposal to ban child circumcision

  1. #106
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^
    who said it's a lie? just because one study puts it at 50% doesn't mean the 97% claim is wrong.
    i still think it's closer to 97% and it's backed up by WHO statistics, having worked in UN/NGO/human rights/development circles for the past 5 years, not to mention friends of mine that have done human rights and medical work all over egypt and sudan and have seen first-hand the problems FGM causes, not just at childbirth but teenage girls that are constantly being hospitalised because of infections because they can't even pee properly. they ask these women if they know any women that aren't mutilated and they don't. in many areas it is universally practised.

    i read the whole article.
    interesting, but really nothing more than the typical anthropological PC 'it's their culture! it's ethnocentric to judge them and say it's bad'.
    i took a lot of anthropology at uni and while it's really interesting on a theoretical level, i'm sorry, i'm not willing to accept that because something is 'traditional' or deeply rooted in a culture, it's ok and has to be respected. fuck that. i don't care if these women think that unmutilated women are not worthy of being married and are somehow deficient. of course they do, they have been practising FGM for thousands of years, they would have stopped ages ago if they thought it was wrong. but to me that doesn't make FGM any less of a harmful traditional practice.
    women were treated like second-class citizens for thousands of years. and we were taught that it was our place and that's how things were supposed to be. until enough women thought, fuck that, and feminism started and the place of women in society changed. why is that if western or judeo-christian cultures evolve, it's all good, but then to say that other traditional cultures have to change some of their practices, we're being ethnocentric and imposing our beliefs on others?

    Second, among members of ethnic groups for whom female circumcision is part of their cultural heritage approval ratings for the custom are generally rather high. According to the Sudan Demographic and Health Survey of 1989-1990, which was conducted in northern and central Sudan, out of 3,805 women interviewed 89 percent were circumcised. Of the women who were circumcised, 96 percent said they had circumcised or would circumcise their daughters. When asked whether they favored continuation of the practice, 90 percent of circumcised women said they favored its continuation.
    sudan practices infibulation, the worst kind of FGM, where women's clits are cut off and a lot of the labiae and then they're sewn shut almost all the way so only a tiny hole remains for pee and menstrual blood to pass through. their wedding night involves their husband slicing them open with a knife so he can fuck them. and yet 96% of women would do it to their daughters. that tells you how deeply entrenched it is in the culture. but does the fact that it's accepted by a majority make it right? doesn't there come a point where harmful practices have to be ended, even if it's by force?
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  2. #107
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    That's not the point. I don't agree with the article per se, and understand your feelings about culture. Its one thing if this is voluntarily being done by adult women but little girls have no say. Its wrong.

    But the point I'm making is how did UNICEF get these figures? What studies were done to conclude this? I'm not the type that just eats what is fed to me. Its curious to me that UNICEF is an organization that relies on funding and donations. If this issue is closely related to poverty and lack of education then that is the way to approach it. I don't understand the point of exaggeration.

    I feel its disrespectful of Egyptian women to make this generalization about them. It makes them seem like savages.

  3. #108
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^
    how is it insulting? there are many egyptian women active in civil society organisations that will tell you that it is nearly universal in egypt and a huge problem that won't be gotten rid of unless it is actively persecuted and a fatwa issued.
    they didn't just take these numbers out of their asses. they are the result of years of field work and data compilation and accounts from egyptian women and development and aid agencies and medical workers that are active in these countries and see the complications every day, and because in most of the country, a woman won't be considered eligible for marriage if she's uncut.
    egypt, like most developing countries, has a tiny middle class and elite. and basically if you are educated and have what would be considered middle class values and level of life, you are in the 3%. so it is very likely that the women you met are part of that minority.

    it's not just UNICEF. it's the WHO, UNDP, UNAids, countless international and local NGOs and civil society organisations that are unaffiliated with the UN system. and they all agree that FGM is nearly universal in egypt.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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    I don't agree. I think that when someone wants to make a point its very easy to select people from a control group that would make the results come out the way they want it to.

    If you go to the poorest parts of Egypt and pick the women from there and go into Cairo into the slum areas and pick the women from there, then obviously you are going to get a different percentage than if you go to Universities and professional offices and select women from there.

    To say that 97% of Egyptian women have had this done, suggests that nearly every Egyptian woman you meet is going to have had this done. How would you feel if when people met you they assumed that you had no clitoris or your vagina hacked up?

    Its careless. The cause is of course of great importance. However it doesn't require dishonesty to make that claim.

    Are you suggesting that only 3% of the country is educated?


    Also I've found different sources that say its 50%, 70%, 80% and 90-95% and 97%. So which is it? Obviously the data was manipulated.


    In 2000, a study found 80% of women aged 15 to 49 had undergone FGM. Unicef claims that 3 million females, varying in age from childhood to maturity, undergo FGM each year. An estimated 130 million women around the globe have been subjected to the procedure. Most of these are Africans.
    Western Resistance: Egypt: FGM Is NOT Islamic, Say Scholars



    Despite global concerns, female genital mutilation remains commonly practiced in Egypt. UNICEF estimated in 2005 that 97% of women between the ages of 15 and 45 have been subjected to the practice, and Egypt's Ministry of Health and Population concludes in a recent survey that at least 50 percent of girls between the ages of 10-18 years in Egypt have undergone genital mutilation.
    Girls March Against Female Circumcision in Egypt | OneWorld.net (U.S.)


    One more thing the claim is exaggerated. Read the above and what you stated. That 97% of women between the ages of 15 and 49 have had this done. That is not what UNICEF said.

    2003 survey by UNICEF said that 97 percent of married women in Egypt had undergone genital mutilation. But the Egypt Demographic and Health Survey has projected that the prevalence of the practice will decline from around 80 percent among girls aged 15-17 to around 60 percent for the same age group in around a decade, according to the report.
    UNICEF: Egypt among leading nations battling female circumcision - International Herald Tribune

    That's an entirely different figure.

  5. #110
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    no, i'm not saying only 3% are educated.
    i'm saying, when you have had enough experience in the field and in human rights to dispute these numbers, then i will take your arguments seriously instead of thinking you're playing devil's advocate for the sake of it, like our dear friend ahti. it just makes it sound like you think a statistical error is more important than the actual issue.
    fact is, i've yet to see very credible sources dispute the fact that FGM is near universal in egypt. whether it's 97% or 95% or 90%, the truth is it's incredibly widespread, though hopefully on the decline among younger women. i don't know why that is so hard to believe when you consider what the culture is like.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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    Well I wasn't off base. I just added some details. The figure is not 97% pf Egyptian women as you claimed but 97% of married women in Egypt ages 15 to 49. That is an entirely different number.

    I'm sorry I get annoyed when people are sloppy with statisitcs. There's no reason for it. The horror is bad enough of as it is.
    Last edited by Dahli; November 30th, 2008 at 03:30 PM.

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    and i get annoyed by excessive nitpicking and anal-retentiveness.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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    That's ok. I can understand that! LOL I just feel for my friends. With this number being thrown around so much they feel like freaks, and they've never had it done. I wasn't playing devil's advocate. I do think its disrespectful of Egyptian woman not to be careful with the actual numbers.

  9. #114
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dahli View Post
    That's ok. I can understand that! LOL I just feel for my friends. With this number being thrown around so much they feel like freaks, and they've never had it done. I wasn't playing devil's advocate. I do think its disrespectful of Egyptian woman not to be careful with the actual numbers.
    I've known a number of Egyptian women. I even got a chance to attend a lecture by Jihan Sadat (I was supposed to interview her to, but the schedule got messed up). Because I met them in the U.S., I guess I have tended to meet the more wealthy and educated, who probably would have been spared this practice. I would never generalize against Egyptian women as a whole, especially because of my positive personal experiences.

  10. #115
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    I dont understand how people can compare male and female circumcision and speak like they are the same thing. The stories I have heard in relation to female circumcision revolt me. they cut out the clit so that a woman cannot have pleasure. I think in a lot of religions where female circumcision occurs do it as a way to oppress women and kept control over them. I have never heard of it being done for medical reasons.

  11. #116
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    Agree Rica. The "mechanics" alone of male and female circumcision make them entirely different practices and the reasons behind them are different too. Removing a male foreskin is relatively simple and does not alter the penis's sexual or urinary function whatsoever. Mutilating a woman's vulva by removing her clitoris and sewing up her labia is absolutely a way to control her in the most barbaric way imaginable. In terms of physical and mental pain and trauma it's worse than rape.
    If all the women in this place were laid end to end, I wouldn’t be surprised - Dorothy Parker

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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    Agree Rica. The "mechanics" alone of male and female circumcision make them entirely different practices and the reasons behind them are different too. Removing a male foreskin is relatively simple and does not alter the penis's sexual or urinary function whatsoever. Mutilating a woman's vulva by removing her clitoris and sewing up her labia is absolutely a way to control her in the most barbaric way imaginable. In terms of physical and mental pain and trauma it's worse than rape.

    I agree 100 percent. Especially with the last line.

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    I don't think anybody in this thread has compared hacking off the clitoris with male circumcision.

    By the way, there are circumcised men who have a problem with what has been done to them and seek to restore their foreskin by stretching the skin of the penis over the glans.

    Russo is one of a small but growing number of circumcised men, both in the United States and abroad, who have elected to restore their foreskins, at home and, for the most part, without the help of a doctor. "I'm far from over, but I'm very happy with it," said Russo, who anticipates spending another year to 1˝ years to complete the process.
    The improbable, some would say unspeakable, procedure is virtually unheard of even in medical circles, but it has its advocates. And while nobody can say for sure how many men are currently "restoring," the numbers of men looking for information, both in print and on the internet, is growing, Russo said.
    Most men give two reasons for their decision. The first, invariably, is that they are trying to regain, often with a fair degree of anger, something taken from them without their consent. "It's my body and I should have a say in it," Russo said. "They didn't bother to ask me, and they didn't bother to use an anesthetic."

    The second reason men give is that restoration of the skin over the head of the penis restores a large amount of sensation, making for greater sexual pleasure.According to Marilyn Milos, a San Anselmo, CA registered nurse who runs NOCIRC, the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers, men who restore say the increased sensation is comparable to "the difference between seeing in black and white and seeing in color."


    Circumcision Reversal Gains in Popularity

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    Silver Member Ahti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martirio View Post
    I don't think anybody in this thread has compared hacking off the clitoris with male circumcision.
    True, it has been said here many times, but I don't think that people actually read these messages here as for what is really said in them, or they don't read the previous messages at all?

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    and i get annoyed by excessive nitpicking and anal-retentiveness.

    Stop picking your anus!
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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