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Thread: Denmark: Proposal to ban child circumcision

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    and like someone else mentioned, that type of female mutilation is only practiced in indonesia and accounts for only a small percentage of all FGM performed throughout the world. it doesn't account for the 97% of egyptian women that undergo FGM, or the millions and millions of women in africa that are subjected to the worst types.
    Exactly. But the lesser prevalence of this type of FGM does not in my opinion change the fact that removing only the clitoral hood is pretty much the same as removing the foreskin. I want to make clear that I'm not saying that any type of FGM is okay, I just mean that it's not that different from male circumcision. (By "it" I'm referring to the removal the clitoral prepuce, not to the more extensive types of FGM, which are more akin to male castration.)

    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    and even when just the hood is removed, there is a good chance it will lead to scarring and nerve damage.
    Yes, even the removal of the clitoral hood only is not harmless. Similarly to male foreskin, it serves the purpose of protecting a very sensitive area, and that is why neither should be tampered with.

    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    also, we have seen there are sometimes medical reasons for male circumcision. i have NEVER heard of any good reason for FGM. if you have one, then maybe your argument would have a leg to stand on. as it is, i think you are 100% wrong and probably playing devil's advocate for the sake of it.
    Medical reasons for circumcision are an entirely different issue, and they do not justify circumcisions done for religious, traditional or aesthetical reasons.

  2. #77
    Silver Member Ahti's Avatar
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    I don't think that the medical part should be involved in this discussion, because then it would be ok to for example amputate a leg, because sometimes amputation is needed for medical reasons.

    So the medical part is a whole different discussion.

    Are you sure that the female one carries more risks when done safely by doctors in a hospital, I am not aware of any medical studies indicating this?
    Are you basing that sentence on fact?

    Of course they are different, because men and women are not the same. That was not the point.
    The point is that both should be legal, if the other one is. Or do you think it's ok to have different rights for men and women because we are not the same physically?

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    ^^^
    well of course.
    for instance, abortion is decided by the woman because she is the one that gets pregnant. the baby might be 50% the man's but when it comes down to it, it's the woman who has the right to end the pregnancy or keep it.
    i think it's too simplistic to reduce it to a 'if men can have it done, so should women'. life isn't that simple or black and white, and while i believe in gender equality, that also doesn't mean that we are the same. for that reason, i don't think FGM and circumcision are comparable. i don't see why it isn't possible to separate the two when the debate about circumcision and FGM arise. to me they are two entirely different things. and i oppose both. but i still think they should be settled separately.
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    Does female circumcision have ANY health benefits whatsoever, eg cleanliness, preventing disease transmission, etc?

    Cuz male circumcision does.
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    Silver Member Ahti's Avatar
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    Ok, it's fine if you want to separate them. But do you realize that keeping the male one legal, is making way for the female one to be legalized? What do you think about that?

    I still don't see any difference in the least invasive female circumsision compared to the male one, even though they have different nerve endings.

    And I wish that people would stop comparing the removing of the clit to the less invavise male circumsision, and would either compare the removal of the penis to the more invasive female one, or then just compare the less invavise to the removal of the foreskin.

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    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^^
    i don't see how keeping male circ legal is doing anything to legalise FGM. if anything, FGM awareness is higher now than ever before, and more and more countries where it is practiced are banning it (though enforcement of the law is another matter). there is also more awareness in western countries where, becuase of immigration, FGM is becoming an issue and people are being prosecuted for having their daughters mutilated in the host country, or back home. there was recently a case here in switzerland where a father was sent to prison for having travelled back to i forget which country to have his daughter mutilated. it doesn't matter that the FGM took place outside switzerland, it was still prosecuted. same as sexual tourism would have been.
    also, i hear male circ is on the decline in countries where it was routinely practiced (north america, latin america, etc).
    the WHO devotes a whole section of the world health assembly to FGM, and even the more traditional countries have started raising awareness to have it banned. of course they won't go as far as to issue a fatwa on FGM because in their retarded little minds it would mean linking islam to FGM. they don't realise that in people's minds, they are linked even though educated people who know better can make the distinction. a fatwa would go a long way because FGM is prevalent in very traditional, religious communities where religious doctrine is law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahti View Post
    If someone wants to say that the male one is ok because men have less nerve endings, then this guideline will be taken into account in everything. This would be catastrophic. You can't do something to someone based on the fact that they have less nerve endings.
    And if men have less nerve-endings, that's even more reason to protect what there is!

    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    also, even the 'safe' FGM carries more health risks than male circumcision. it's not just about nerve endings. though it's true that the reduction in sexual pleasure is greater with FGM than with male cicumcision.
    If both FGM (still not talking about the more severe types of it) and male circumcision are done by a competent doctor under hygienic conditions, how is it more risky for a female?

    I'd also like to point out that the shape of the clitoral hood varies from person to person, and it doesn't cover the entire clitoris in all women, which leaves the clitoris exposed. No man is born with his glans exposed, but some women are. And yet it is thought that the exposal of the clitoris is more harmful for women.

    Also I'd like to add that while it's probably true that male circumcision does prevent STD's, does anybody else think that promoting this fact might discourage people from using condoms?
    Last edited by Tati; November 28th, 2008 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Does female circumcision have ANY health benefits whatsoever, eg cleanliness, preventing disease transmission, etc?

    Cuz male circumcision does.

    not that I've ever heard.

    but male circumcision is thought to lower the rate of cervical cancer in the women they sleep with.


    Circumcision 'curbs cervical cancer risk'
    BBC News | HEALTH | Circumcision 'curbs cervical cancer risk'

    Circumcision and cervical cancer
    Is there a link?
    Circumcision and cervical cancer



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    You only get HPV from guys who aren't cut? Tell that to all the people I know with genital warts and they'll laugh their asses off.
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    I'm not sure why there is a comparison between male circumcision and FGM as if they are remotely comparable. While male circumcision can be considered unnecessary, unless there is a recurring infection or a problem of tearing when the foreskin is retracted, I have yet to hear of a medical reason for female "circumcision".

    And the type of female circumcision that involves merely clipping the clitoral hood is such a small number of overall female circumcisions performed that it doesn't help the comparison either. Not to mention the number of female circumcisions that result in lifelong sexual dysfunction, infection, and complications from infibulation.

    Moreover, there have been NIH studies showing that the results of circumcising adult males in high-risk areas of HIV transmission, particularly in Africa, has reduced the HIV transmission rate. Below is an example of such a story from The Australian:
    CIRCUMCISING men cuts their risk of being infected with the AIDS virus in half, and could prevent hundreds of thousands or even millions of new infections, researchers say.
    Circumcising men worked so well that the researchers stopped two large clinical trials in Kenya and Uganda to announce the results today, although they cautioned that the procedure does not make men immune to the virus.

    Public health leaders hailed the results as pointing to a potentially powerful way to reduce HIV infections in Africa, the continent hardest hit by AIDS.

    "It does have the potential to prevent many tens of thousands, many hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of infections over coming years," Dr Kevin De Cock, director of the World Health Organisation's Department of HIV/AIDS, told reporters.

    A US National Institutes of Health study in Kisumu, Kenya, involving 2784 men aged 18 to 24 showed a 53 per cent reduction of HIV infections in circumcised men compared to uncircumcised men.

    A parallel study involving 4996 men aged 15 to 49 in Rakai, Uganda, showed circumcised men were 48 per cent less likely than uncircumcised men to become infected.

  11. #86
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    The foreskin gets microscopic abrasions during intercourse. A really good way to prevent disease transmission is to wrap your dick up cut or not.
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    Leave it up to the parents. Yep, it's a tough decision to make- but it can be made for health reasons as well. For us it was a strong family history of diabetes and not an aesthetic issue.

    Corrolating circumcision to FGM is just insane. In no way is the practice therapeutic for the individual.
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    wait.. what does circumcision have to do with diabetes? lol
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    I know a guy who wasn't circumcised, and he is kind of bitter about it. He was the only uncut guy in the locker room in high school, and all the women he's been with are accustomed to circumcised men, so he has always been self-conscious & embarrassed about it. When his son was born & the doctor asked if they wanted circumcision, the guy said hell YES.

    Just thought I'd throw that out there, fwiw.
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    Penises with foreskins just look funny, anyway. It's like a giant worm's shooting a bunch of snot in your direction.

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