Dallas police chief: Dozens of tickets issued for not speaking English

[Novice]

Originally Posted by A*O

Hang on. Tijuana is in Mexico. Why should they make any "effort" to speak English. It's up to you to speak Spanish there surely?

Yes it is but it's also a "boarder town" whichsomeone said it was a prerequisite to be bi-lingual, which obviously isn't the case.

[katerpillar]

Originally Posted by McJag

That's easy-the tourists will not have a local drivers license...

No it's not. How is the cop going to see whatever drivers license they have if the person doesn't understand what the cop is asking for?

Also, how long after arrival is "sufficient" time to have learnt the language? A week? A month? A year? How is the cop going to be able to determine how long an immigrant has been here and decide whether the driver has had enough time to learn English? Furthermore, what level of skill will be required if you want to avoid a fine - comfortable fluency, or is heavily accented, very broken English adequate? It's a ridiculous idea.

[caramel]

Originally Posted by A*O

I think that native English speakers like most of us here forget how lucky we are that our mother tongue has been adopted as more or less the official international language. Perhaps if history had taken a few different turns then Americans would be speaking Spanish or French like the very early European settlers. Or if Hitler had conquered the whole of Europe during WW2 it's quite possible we'd all be speaking German. There's all kinds of 'what ifs' involved.

That was what I kind of tried to say. That many English speakers just speak English when they are abroad. I wasn't really being rude but when I try to just suggest that English is not the first language to everyone and then to say that I'm shit seems just like the kind of behavior that I would expect to hear from some Americans that only see the fact that it is hard for them to learn other languages so they don't need to learn more than English.

I think it is wrong to give a ticket when you cannot speak English especially when the education system is very unequal in US.

I wasn't the one here being rude and cursing when someone is not from US and just pointed out how it looks to other when you are seriously saying that everyone in US, where should be a lot immigrants, should magically without proper education to learn speak English.

I don't expect that someone should learn to speak foreing language if they move to the country when they are old and do not learn languages so well anymore. Especially when learning to speak English in US might be a psychological question to many immigrants who are in cultural shock or feel that they have lost their real homes. It must feel to them that it is the only thing that make them different from Americans.

[Charmed Hour]

Originally Posted by caramel

I think it is wrong to give a ticket when you cannot speak English especially when the education system is very unequal in US.

How is the education system unequal?? We might not have the greatest public education system but it's not that terrible.

Go into a community that has a large immigrant population and every local public school will have an English as a Second Language curriculum in place for non-native speaking immigrant children. Or as is the case in many parts of NYC, a second or 3rd generation child that speaks no English or barely any.

IMO, ESL classes are part of the problem. All lessons are conducted in Spanish, Chinese, etc with very little English instruction. How can you expect one to learn English when 5 of the 6 hours spent in class is in the native tongue?? Allegedly, by 5th or 6th grade, a child that began ESL in pre-k can speak, read and write a the minimum accepted level. Notice I said, "minimum"?

As for adult programs, there are plenty of free programs out there as well. They're advertised heavily on the transportation systems, in newspapers, and on tv in every language imaginable.

You can move into various ethnic communities here and never hear English spoken or see a store sign printed in English throughout the course of your day. There's no longer an incentive to learn the language when you're catered to by having everything in your comunity printed/spoken in your native language. When schools segregate children based on language, when you walk into any governmental agency and materials are printed in various languages.

I also love being told I need to learn Spanish. Many times I have been addressed in Spanish for directions, etc. and will reply, "I'm sorry, I don't speak Spanish" to be told, in very clear if accented English, that I should learn or blatantly given attitude. If someone approaches me and asks in Spanish if I speak the language, I will reply that I do. It's all in the person's approach, do not assume someone speaks your language. Same goes for us English speakers travelling abroad.

[caramel]

Originally Posted by Charmed Hour

How is the education system unequal?? We might not have the greatest public education system but it's not that terrible.

Go into a community that has a large immigrant population and every local public school will have an English as a Second Language curriculum in place for non-native speaking immigrant children. Or as is the case in many parts of NYC, a second or 3rd generation child that speaks no English or barely any.

IMO, ESL classes are part of the problem. All lessons are conducted in Spanish, Chinese, etc with very little English instruction. How can you expect one to learn English when 5 of the 6 hours spent in class is in the native tongue?? Allegedly, by 5th or 6th grade, a child that began ESL in pre-k can speak, read and write a the minimum accepted level. Notice I said, "minimum"?

As for adult programs, there are plenty of free programs out there as well. They're advertised heavily on the transportation systems, in newspapers, and on tv in every language imaginable.

I just said that because of what I have heard from people that have lived there. And I compared it to our system that is very developed. So you're right that I exaggerated that little bit.

The reason I thought it is unequal is because getting to university costs and you have to have money or scholarship to get there. And what I have heard is that the students are splitted in high school or something so that the kids that go to universities go in different classes and those who don't go on their own. What I have heard is that you have to be like super smart to get on the university line if you are not from a wealthy family.

Is it like that? Because I have a friend that lives in California and that was how she explained it. She said that the education is good when you are in the university group and she didn't know about the other one.

[McJag]

Originally Posted by katerpillar

No it's not. How is the cop going to see whatever drivers license they have if the person doesn't understand what the cop is asking for?

Also, how long after arrival is "sufficient" time to have learnt the language? A week? A month? A year? How is the cop going to be able to determine how long an immigrant has been here and decide whether the driver has had enough time to learn English? Furthermore, what level of skill will be required if you want to avoid a fine - comfortable fluency, or is heavily accented, very broken English adequate? It's a ridiculous idea.

We are talking about people who have lived her years-like 11,20,etc. I think by 5 years you could learn enough to get by. If I am not mistaken,doesn't Austrailia have such a rule in place? That English is THE language? Doesn't seem rediculous for you all-why different for us? Broken English is fine,but none after years of living here? Very dangerous. Besides-we have already discussed at length: the cops were in the wrong. Oh! Yes-most tourists have enough sense to show papers indicating they ARE tourists.

Originally Posted by Charmed Hour

How is the education system unequal?? We might not have the greatest public education system but it's not that terrible.

Go into a community that has a large immigrant population and every local public school will have an English as a Second Language curriculum in place for non-native speaking immigrant children. Or as is the case in many parts of NYC, a second or 3rd generation child that speaks no English or barely any.

IMO, ESL classes are part of the problem. All lessons are conducted in Spanish, Chinese, etc with very little English instruction. How can you expect one to learn English when 5 of the 6 hours spent in class is in the native tongue?? Allegedly, by 5th or 6th grade, a child that began ESL in pre-k can speak, read and write a the minimum accepted level. Notice I said, "minimum"?

As for adult programs, there are plenty of free programs out there as well. They're advertised heavily on the transportation systems, in newspapers, and on tv in every language imaginable.

You can move into various ethnic communities here and never hear English spoken or see a store sign printed in English throughout the course of your day. There's no longer an incentive to learn the language when you're catered to by having everything in your comunity printed/spoken in your native language. When schools segregate children based on language, when you walk into any governmental agency and materials are printed in various languages.

I also love being told I need to learn Spanish. Many times I have been addressed in Spanish for directions, etc. and will reply, "I'm sorry, I don't speak Spanish" to be told, in very clear if accented English, that I should learn or blatantly given attitude. If someone approaches me and asks in Spanish if I speak the language, I will reply that I do. It's all in the person's approach, do not assume someone speaks your language. Same goes for us English speakers travelling abroad.

That,dear friends is the major problem.

Originally Posted by caramel

I just said that because of what I have heard from people that have lived there. And I compared it to our system that is very developed. So you're right that I exaggerated that little bit.

The reason I thought it is unequal is because getting to university costs and you have to have money or scholarship to get there. And what I have heard is that the students are splitted in high school or something so that the kids that go to universities go in different classes and those who don't go on their own. What I have heard is that you have to be like super smart to get on the university line if you are not from a wealthy family.

Is it like that? Because I have a friend that lives in California and that was how she explained it. She said that the education is good when you are in the university group and she didn't know about the other one.

No,it is NOT like that. If you want to attend a major ivy league-yes,you need money or a scholarship requiring brains. Most people here do not aspire to that. Instead,they attend the many community colleges-far cheaper. Furthermore,most big companies pay for your classes & higher education. There are also hundreds of different grants given out. There is NO reason for anyone who wants to go,not to attend college. Unless they are very lazy-and that happens.
We also have state universities-if you are a resident,you go cheaper than someone from another state. That is a choice. In fact,we have many,many choices here. You seem to have a very poor opinion of America,based on very little info. We aren't perfect-but we aren't called the land of opportunity for nothing.

[Charmed Hour]

Originally Posted by caramel

I just said that because of what I have heard from people that have lived there. And I compared it to our system that is very developed. So you're right that I exaggerated that little bit.

The reason I thought it is unequal is because getting to university costs and you have to have money or scholarship to get there. And what I have heard is that the students are splitted in high school or something so that the kids that go to universities go in different classes and those who don't go on their own. What I have heard is that you have to be like super smart to get on the university line if you are not from a wealthy family.

Is it like that? Because I have a friend that lives in California and that was how she explained it. She said that the education is good when you are in the university group and she didn't know about the other one.

I agree that the costs of higher education are out of control. I'm not even talking solely about tution; books, housing fees, etc. are through the roof. I am quite envious of those countries that provide free university education to their people.

Though, like McJag has said, there is no one in this country who can't attend college if they so choose. For me, I wasn't eligible for a full free ride, but between academic and athletic scholarships along with student loans, I made it through at an affordable cost.

[caramel]

Originally Posted by McJag

No,it is NOT like that. If you want to attend a major ivy league-yes,you need money or a scholarship requiring brains. Most people here do not aspire to that. Instead,they attend the many community colleges-far cheaper. Furthermore,most big companies pay for your classes & higher education. There are also hundreds of different grants given out. There is NO reason for anyone who wants to go,not to attend college. Unless they are very lazy-and that happens.
We also have state universities-if you are a resident,you go cheaper than someone from another state. That is a choice. In fact,we have many,many choices here. You seem to have a very poor opinion of America,based on very little info. We aren't perfect-but we aren't called the land of opportunity for nothing.

Ok, thank's for the info. There is just this image of US that at least I have seen in where I live that Americans are kind of egocentric and have a view of life that they are the best of everything and that is why I must have a tone in my writing that is negative. I understand that it must not be totally true but the image is kind of stuck. I wasn't trying to mock US I was just trying to kind of see is it really like I have been told.

Also is there a big difference in schools in general? like the place or neighbourhood where you live defines the quality of youre education? There has been talk about ghettoes and stuff here and some say that in US in poor areas the schools are bad?

Originally Posted by Charmed Hour

I agree that the costs of higher education are out of control. I'm not even talking solely about tution; books, housing fees, etc. are through the roof. I am quite envious of those countries that provide free university education to their people.

Though, like McJag has said, there is no one in this country who can't attend college if they so choose. For me, I wasn't eligible for a full free ride, but between academic and athletic scholarships along with student loans, I made it through at an affordable cost.

Ok, thank you for the info.

[buttmunch]

Originally Posted by L1049

I have a weird "quirk" with languages that pisses me off
I learned French from grade 3 into grade 9 and could always read it and translate into english okay, but I had a hard time speaking and hearing someone speak than translate it. I'm still like that, but now I'll pick up bits and pieces in speech that help but it's still a bitch.
I took an intro course of Spanish and had no problem with the written work but when I try to speak, I'm screwed. I can understand Spanish speakers more than French though.

Maybe if I visit a foreign country, I'll carry a whiteboard around my neck since I'm quicker with written than I am speaking

Funny but that's kind of my problem. I can more or less read the paper in a bunch of languages but speaking is a whole different story. My mind just gets paralyzed. I think I have a block and am afraid of looking stupid.
As far as knowing a few phrases, I do have that but it's not enough to say 'listen Officer Fuckwat, I didn't pull a u-turn back there'.

[A*O]

Originally Posted by McJag

We are talking about people who have lived her years-like 11,20,etc. I think by 5 years you could learn enough to get by. If I am not mistaken,doesn't Austrailia have such a rule in place? That English is THE language? Doesn't seem rediculous for you all-why different for us? Broken English is fine,but none after years of living here? Very dangerous. Besides-we have already discussed at length: the cops were in the wrong. Oh! Yes-most tourists have enough sense to show papers indicating they ARE tourists.

There are language requirements for immigrants with permanent residents visas who wish to become citizens. Unfortunately, becoming a citizen isn't mandatory (I wish it was) so we have a lot of people who live here legally but don't have an Aussie passport, can't vote, can't join the civil service, police or military, etc. Non-English speakers tend to fall into the same groups as the US - those who assimilate and learn to speak English and those who don't. Our education, health and social services system does provide some support for recently arrived non-English speakers but certainly doesn't bend over backwards to accommodate them if they were born here as happens in the UK. The older generation tend to speak their mother tongue (Chinese, Greek, Italian, Vietnamese etc) and tend to socialise within that group too and rely on their kids to translate for them but those kids are always totally bi or even tri-lingual and they all speak fluent English. As the older generation dies out those families become English speakers but are still very proud and protective of their cultural heritage so you still have kids attending Greek school or whatever to keep their language and culture alive and so they should.

[Penny Lane]

I just went home this past weekend and I noticed that abut 90% of the people I saw in public were conversing with other people in Spanish.. and not just members of their own parties/friends/family members. Case in point: we went out to dinner and the waitress spoke spanish and I had to order in spanish.. something I'm not terribly comfortable with because I've forgotten a lot of the linguistic formalities over the years. I went out to get coffee and another patron was asking the barista something in spanish (what he said is another story entirely but it was hilarious). My mom converses in spanish with at least 75% of her customers because that's really all they can speak. The point I'm trying to make is that immigrants in certain areas don't have to deal with needing to learn english because the demographics of that area make it easy to converse with just about anyone in spanish. But it may be another story entirely in other areas where the population isn't pre-dominantly hispanic and there isn't a good chance everyone speaks or understands spanish.. I don't know how non-spanish speakers would react if they got a waitress who started talking to them in spanish or a customer who couldn't understand them, but I could see how it might be frustrating to people in the service industry or law enforcement. Having said all that I don't think they should have been given tickets... but I can understand the frustration.

[A*O]

I am still certain that a lot of people "forget" how to speak English when it suits them, ie, when a cop wants to give them a ticket.

[january]

Originally Posted by Penny Lane

I just went home this past weekend and I noticed that abut 90% of the people I saw in public were conversing with other people in Spanish.. and not just members of their own parties/friends/family members. Case in point: we went out to dinner and the waitress spoke spanish and I had to order in spanish.. something I'm not terribly comfortable with because I've forgotten a lot of the linguistic formalities over the years. I went out to get coffee and another patron was asking the barista something in spanish (what he said is another story entirely but it was hilarious). My mom converses in spanish with at least 75% of her customers because that's really all they can speak. The point I'm trying to make is that immigrants in certain areas don't have to deal with needing to learn english because the demographics of that area make it easy to converse with just about anyone in spanish. But it may be another story entirely in other areas where the population isn't pre-dominantly hispanic and there isn't a good chance everyone speaks or understands spanish.. I don't know how non-spanish speakers would react if they got a waitress who started talking to them in spanish or a customer who couldn't understand them, but I could see how it might be frustrating to people in the service industry or law enforcement. Having said all that I don't think they should have been given tickets... but I can understand the frustration.

Yes, and see....thats what it frustrating. Because when I lived overseas I would not have dreamed of applying for a customer service job and not speaking arabic. And if I did, I'm 100% sure I would have received a "WTF" response if I wanted to work in a restaurant but said I didn't speak arabic - I never would have been hired! I couldn't have just become a waitress and spoke to people in English and hope they understand me, it just doesn't happen that way, nor should it. I'm not sure how it became acceptable to only speak Spanish, and its becoming more pervasive. And yes, it is very frustrating. It seems like there is less and less incentive for some Spanish-speaking people to learn English these days. My husband sure as hell wasn't coddled when he came here - he knew he had to speak English, and speak it well, in order to succeed. It seems like we kind of coddle the Spanish speakers and the other minorities of different language groups learn to make do.

[Novice]

Originally Posted by A*O

I am still certain that a lot of people "forget" how to speak English when it suits them, ie, when a cop wants to give them a ticket.

I have a bit of a sad, but also funny (guess you could call it bittersweet?) anecdote about that....
My grandmother came to the UK in her 20s. She learnt english, then taught herself to read & write it. She worked as a chef for an embassy & then in her later career worked in various catering capacities.
She had a series of strokes & my mom & Aunt put her in a home (albeit a nice home). Sometimes when she wasn't so lucid, she'd wander into the kitchens, stir what was cooking & telling the staff what to do, all in german... a language that she'd not spoken for 50 yrs (one didn't speak german in post-war Britain)..... The staff used to smile & nod, agree with what she was saying, etc. They not only didn't mind, but liked it & made sure she was safe....
Kind of sad.... but I thought that I'd share.

[McJag]

Originally Posted by january

It seems like we kind of coddle the Spanish speakers and the other minorities of different language groups learn to make do.

Too right. We don't do this for ANY other group. If you think about it, it insults the Hispanics-like saying,here-the Chinese can do this & all other groups,but you need more help.

Originally Posted by Novice

I have a bit of a sad, but also funny (guess you could call it bittersweet?) anecdote about that....
My grandmother came to the UK in her 20s. She learnt english, then taught herself to read & write it. She worked as a chef for an embassy & then in her later career worked in various catering capacities.
She had a series of strokes & my mom & Aunt put her in a home (albeit a nice home). Sometimes when she wasn't so lucid, she'd wander into the kitchens, stir what was cooking & telling the staff what to do, all in german... a language that she'd not spoken for 50 yrs (one didn't speak german in post-war Britain)..... The staff used to smile & nod, agree with what she was saying, etc. They not only didn't mind, but liked it & made sure she was safe....
Kind of sad.... but I thought that I'd share.

That is so sweet. Bless her-I am glad they were good to her.