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Thread: Bomb rocks government offices in Oslo, Norway: two said dead

  1. #61
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HWBL View Post
    Then make it 21 years for each life he took.
    now this is a great idea. We could all back this one.
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

  2. #62
    Elite Member caramel's Avatar
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    i feel physically sick. i just now heard of this, didnt watch news yesterday, seems like this just cannot happen and it does. there has been too much of this crazy ass nazi shit violence in skandinavia lately, i cannot understand it. and if he wants to be racist why go on killing norweigian "pure blooded" kids.

    these fucking nutters never make any sense. and i thought the norweigian blackmetal people were nuts with the killing and curch burning.
    we don't have to make love to have an orgasm

  3. #63
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twitchy2.0 View Post
    I'm pretty sure Norway must have some way of keeping someone past the 21 years. Like the Dangerous Offender designation in Canada that allows for indefinite imprisonment.
    this.

    i don't really understand why people everywhere (not just here) are so shocked that maximum prison sentences in norway are just 21 years and acting as though that's the reason this happened. um, lots of countries have similar laws and their crime rates are still way lower than countries with tougher criminal justice systems. and like you said, i'm sure there is a provision like canada's dangerous offender designation.

    and yes, as tragic and senseless and huge as this attack is, i think it is definitely a one-off and not something that will happen again so i doubt norway really needs to overhaul its entire system based on this attack.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    ^ and unlike the US, they'll be smart enough to understand that they don't need to write reactive legislation.
    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


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  5. #65
    Elite Member Deutsche's Avatar
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    This manifesto needs to be taken down from the internet. It is a 9 years long planned sick plan working out shockingly well.

    I have heard that the monster WANTS to talk about his crime. He will so use the media and the attention and god knows how many other sick souls he will win for his ideology.
    sharp as Angie's square jaw

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    this.

    i don't really understand why people everywhere (not just here) are so shocked that maximum prison sentences in norway are just 21 years and acting as though that's the reason this happened. um, lots of countries have similar laws and their crime rates are still way lower than countries with tougher criminal justice systems. and like you said, i'm sure there is a provision like canada's dangerous offender designation.

    and yes, as tragic and senseless and huge as this attack is, i think it is definitely a one-off and not something that will happen again so i doubt norway really needs to overhaul its entire system based on this attack.
    I don't think anyone says that he did this because he knew he'd only get 21 years in jail. He was always going to do it. The problem is that Norway doesn't have an adequate penal code to deal with this kind of event because, sadly, there's never been a precedent for such a horrific crime. Anyway, I'm with Soj - 'natural justice' will prevail in prison. It would be great if the other rightwing World Of Warcraft nutters took him out.
    I've never liked lesbianism - it leaves a bad taste in my mouth
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  7. #67
    Elite Member Lenny's Avatar
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    I just read that Princess Mette-Marit's step-brother has died, too. He was a police officer and his son was on the island and he was shot when he tried to save him. I didn't find a proper article in English yet .

    Norway's royal court says Crown Princess Mette-Marit's stepbrother was among killed in island massacre - AP - breakingnews.com

  8. #68
    Elite Member Deutsche's Avatar
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    Court in #Oslo decides that today's hearing for Anders Behring Breivik will be closed to public and the media
    best they could decide
    sharp as Angie's square jaw

  9. #69
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsche View Post
    This manifesto needs to be taken down from the internet. It is a 9 years long planned sick plan working out shockingly well.

    I have heard that the monster WANTS to talk about his crime. He will so use the media and the attention and god knows how many other sick souls he will win for his ideology.
    You can't do that. The internet doesn't work that way. He doesn't need to win people either. They're already there. There are so many others out there who think exactly like him.

    { 2011 07 24 }
    Utøya: English version

    If a single man can display so much hatred –
    think only of how much love we all can display together.
    – Stine Renate HåheimI wrote a Norwegian post explaining my experience at Utøya. I had taken this blog for dead, and had entirely forgotten that it was syndicated on Planet Debian. I don’t want to let Google Translate make this disaster any worse than it is – the translation of “bullets” into “balls” being particularly bad – so the international attention the massacre has garnered in consideration, I am writing an English translation of my experiences. I feel somehow duty-bound to make people aware of what happened, but I don’t want to get into anything else but a sober description of the events and some very brief reflections. There are many details I have chosen to omit.
    Others have written their experiences of the events at Utøya. I wanted to write mine down as well, and “get it out there”. Partly, I want to write this down because I’m unsure if I will remember all the details at a later point in time, although I think I’d prefer it if I couldn’t. I’m also writing this because people are asking about my experiences and it’s much better to have an URL to give them, lest I have to keep going through the same spiel over and over again.
    Our former Prime Minister and current labour movement demigod Gro Harlem Brundtland had recently left the island. I had been the cameraman for a video interview of her talking about Utøya, and I was in the media group room encoding the video into a file suitable for YouTube, when someone else in the room startled and said that Twitter was full of messages about a loud explosion in Oslo. As the newspapers brought us information about the extent of the damages, a consensus arose that an informational meeting was in order. As soon as the current round of talks finished, we were gathered into the main hall.
    The meeting was duly held, and after the statement was made that a TV feed would be made available, I took it upon myself as the local alpha geek to make it happen. Of course, the situation caused both the wireless network and the GPRS networks to become totally unusable. As I was waiting for someone to set up a password, I took the opportunity to face the consequences of having eaten two bits of a microwavable dish called “Hold-It” – the local equivalent of a Hot Pocket – and went to the toilet.
    As I was in there, I first heard agitated shouting, then screams, then gunshots coming from just outside the toilets. More than anything else, it sounded like a toy gun. I was convinced that someone was making a joke in incredibly bad taste and I stormed out of the booth with the intent of halting it. As I tore the door open, I saw two of my comrades hiding in a recessed corner. Their facial expressions left absolutely no doubt that this was no toy. They signalled for me to get back in the booth. I closed the door, did a mental double-take in utter, complete confusion, and opened it again. They were still signalling. Had they not stood there, I would have run straight into the gunman; they saved my life. I looked out into the hallway, and I made eye contact with a young boy lying in a pool of blood. He was motioning for me to help him. I heard more gunshots from inside the building and retreated back inside.
    As I was trying to think through my next move, I realized that the decidedly insubstantial wood-fiber door would not resist any kind of bullets. I made my way out into the hallway, with the intent of escaping outside. At that point, I was of course not aware that there was an intention to kill as many as possible, so I thought that the open spaces outside would be a place of relative safety. Of course, this proved to be wrong – and my life was probably saved a second time by one of the café volunteers taking me into a hard-to-spot employee’s bathroom.
    We sat there for ninety minutes. Always ready to make a run for it, ready for just about anything. A peculiar group dynamic arose with these two people with whom I had barely previously spoken. We came to share a strange sense of common destiny and gallows humour. One of them had seen the shooter and described the police uniform. I perceived it to be realistic that we were the only ones aware of the wounded outside the toilet. I tried to reach the emergency services, but all their lines were busy; the terror attack in Oslo had probably clogged their lines. I finally got through to the fire services, who could inform me that the police did know about the situation and were on their way. This was to take 90 minutes – and by the time we evacuated, the young boy outside my door had perished. The despair I first saw in his eyes as I passed him, fleeing from one room to the other – and the empty, blank stare as we left, are burned into me and they are images I will never in my life forget.
    Finally, the real police arrived. We walked out. I chose the path through the minor conference hall – something I now regret. The sight was simply beyond my capacity to describe fully, and so terrifying that I barely remember the sight – only the terror it struck in me. There were several people bunched up in a corner, a big amorphous heap of bodies. Some were conscious and yelled at me not to do anything that could startle the police, others lay still. Their bodies were all covered in blood, and a thick pool of blood extended at least a half-metre in all directions around them. The policeman across the hall was screaming orders at me, but he was screaming so loudly that I couldn’t make out his words at first.
    We were first moved into the camp newspaper’s offices. There were about eight of us there, I think, in addition to one girl who lay wounded. Towards the end she was drifting in and out of consciousness. We covered her with sweaters to keep her warm and one of us tried to at least temper her bleeding. The bullet had missed her heart, but by the entry wound it was clear that it was not by far. I do not know who this girl was or how she is now. I sat behind and never saw her face. The wounded were evacuated first. I don’t remember how long we remained; I had lost all concept of time.
    In spite of protests from the group who knew him, one kid was put in handcuffs. At the time I didn’t understand why, and the policeman seemed to say something almost to the effect that there was no reason for it at all. I didn’t see when they undid his cuffs, but I remember thinking that this treatment made a terrible experience even worse for him. I tried my best to comfort him but knew it would be little help. Later, when things stabilised a little, we were told that he was handcuffed because he had come from an unsecured area. The police was extremely good at carefully explaining what was happening and why; this was a big help and I am grateful for it.
    Eventually we were moved out into the main corridor of the building, where we joined up into a group of about fifty. Only when I saw the two people who saved my life did any emotion other than mild confusion arise. I broke down shivering in tears in one of their arms. After a few seconds, I came back to my senses and realised that this was not the time. I quickly gathered myself, got the shaking under control, and sat down. We were given some chocolate and soda from the kiosk. I remember making an offhand remark that an inability to find joy in free candy was a sure sign of a bad situation. We all laughed out loud. Gallows humour is a coping mechanism, but in retrospect one almost feels guilty for it.
    We were shown out in a single file with hands above our heads. I remember an intense concern that someone would slip in the steep, muddy slope and create a misunderstanding. Outside, there were more bodies. Some under improvised covers – a tarpaulin from the waffle stand, the deflated bouncy castle – but some simply lay there.
    Everyone I met displayed a courage, a mental discipline and unity of purpose far beyond anything one would ever wish to expect from people this young. Everyone conducted themselves with an attitude that could almost be described as “stiff upper lip”.
    Safely across the fjord we were offered blankets. I was asked if I was aware of any injuries, and asked to lift my shirt and show my abdominal region. We were shown into the bus which took us to the hotel used by the survivors and their family. I simply cannot describe in any words the relief I felt when I was able to embrace my living comrades. It was completely unlike anything I had ever felt before in my life. The euphoric feeling was tempered only by the realisation that there would be many I could never see again, comrades whom I had taken great pride in calling my friends, with futures in the service of all mankind, futures I had previously found such great joy in pondering and guessing about. The feeling which continues to upset me the most, is the feeling that so many of my comrades left behind grieving families and friends. Torn away senselessly.
    I do not know how much more than this relatively sober account of the events on Utøya I can muster. I would, however, like to offer some reflections.
    First of all, from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the police who saved the lives of so many still on the island, the holidaymakers who took aboard swimmers into their boats – and the rescue services staffed primarily by volunteers who have spared no effort in trying to soften the blow as much as they can. The opportunity to spend time with those comrades who underwent the same experience as myself has also been an immeasurable aid. I was also so relieved to find my very closest friend among the survivors, which has also been an indescribable help.
    If I can name a single positive in this tragedy: Had he arrived with his automatic weapon fifteen or twenty minutes prior, he would have arrived during the informational meeting, at a time when the major hall was absolutely jam-packed – the death toll would be many times what it ended up being. I am agonisingly aware of the meager comfort this provides to those who have been bereft of their closest, but I do find some solace in this.
    We cannot sweep under a rug that this was – without question! – a political attack on the labour movement. But it is thankfully also an attack which has been perceived by everyone as an attack on the Norwegian society, and on a symbol of the wide recruitment to the participatory democracy which lies at our very national soul. I cannot thank the Norwegian people, and indeed the people in other nations who have offered their condolences, enough for their shows of support and shared grief. It really has been a tremendous help to me knowing that so many people feel with us.
    I also want to thank from the bottom of my heart the rock-steadiness of everyone in both the national and local wings of the Labour Party and Labour Youth in supporting us, and the political milieu in general for their resolute steadfastness saving me from losing yet more that I cherish; our freedoms in a participatory democracy.
    Our Party has lost many of its very brightest youngsters. Personally I feel an angry spite, a deep restless urge to get the wheels of society going again. I want to show his kind that we will not be broken. We’re stronger than that. I will not be frightened into silence and passivity. I want to remember the dead, and honor them by carrying on our common work.
    I want to end this with a request to everyone who reads this, echoing a statement I read by one of my good friends and comrades: Please, don’t let me see any messages of hatred, wishes for the death penalty, anything like that. If anyone should be of the belief that anything will improve by murdering this sad little person, they would be profoundly wrong. All attention now should be plowed into caring for those victims and their relatives who did not share my luck, and not giving an audience to a perpetrator who wants one.
    Tore Sinding Bekkedal
    http://gunkies.org/blog/?p=91
    Last edited by twitchy2.0; July 25th, 2011 at 08:31 AM.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

    -- Stephen Hawking

  10. #70
    Gold Member Janet296's Avatar
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    I was doing a little bit of reading on Norway's prisons. I was quite surprised. I don't necessarily think that their way is wrong. I do think that Norway has had just your average criminals. Maybe they committed one murder or they have raped a woman. These are awful crimes but maybe they can be redeemed. That is how I imagine how the Norwegian's think. I read that some of their prisons have tanning beds, flat screen televisions and small cottages. They are dealing with a new sort of criminal entirely now. They have never had a Jeffery Dahmer or a Timothy McVeigh. I wonder if they want the guy who murdered 93 people to have it this easy?


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  11. #71
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Whatever Norway is doing prison-wise, it works. They have a low recidivism rate. I strongly doubt however that dangerous prisoners are put into a low security environment. He isn't a new sort of prisoner. It's only the scale of the killing that sets him apart. There will be secure facilities in Norway. The Halden Fengsel prison is also new and an exception which is why it made the news here.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

    -- Stephen Hawking

  12. #72
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Thank you for that article, Twitchy. That was a chilling read.
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

  13. #73
    Gold Member JerriBlank's Avatar
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    apparently you can extend the term 5 years at a time:

    Anders Behring Breivik who, according to his lawyer has admitted his role in the mass murder of at least 93 people in an "atrocious . but necessary" act, could be imprisoned beyond the country's 21-year maximum sentence if found guilty, according to a Norwegian prosecutor.

    But to keep him in jail for the rest of his life, in the country's famously comfortable prison system, would be unheard of in the peaceful, egalitarian country of five million people, said Carol Sandbye, a lawyer who works in Norway's office of public prosecutions.

    She said the country's General Civil Penal Code gives the state prosecutor the right to seek an extension of sentences beyond the 21-year maximum for up to five years at a time - on the condition that the inmate is deemed to be a "high risk" of repeating serious offences.

    Sandbye, who was fielding media calls at the Oslo Police District office Sunday, said it's therefore technically possible to keep extending a sentence indefinitely.

    "You can, but it's highly unlikely," she told Postmedia News in a telephone interview. "That would mean that person is going to spend his entire life in jail."

    Sandbye said that inmates in all "civilized countries" without the death penalty are eventually paroled. But in Canada it is widely assumed notorious serial killers Clifford Olson and Paul Bernardo will die in prison.

    Sandbye acknowledged that the devastating mass murder Friday could prompt a debate about whether some people should always remain behind bars.

    "That's what the world needs to understand about Norway, is that this incident represents our loss of innocence, because we've been a very safe country to live in until now," she said.

    "There's been no reason to keep people in prison for life."



    Read more: Killings 'loss of innocence' for Norway

  14. #74
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerriBlank View Post
    apparently you can extend the term 5 years at a time:She said the country's General Civil Penal Code gives the state prosecutor the right to seek an extension of sentences beyond the 21-year maximum for up to five years at a time - on the condition that the inmate is deemed to be a "high risk" of repeating serious offences.


    This makes sense! Thank you.
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    In a somewhat similar vein, Charles Manson has been up for parole since 1978.

    He has been turned down and returned to incarceration 11 times.

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