8 men found dead

[choozen1ne]

Does anyone else think the idea of a Canadian Gang is funny ?

[hello]

Originally Posted by Grimmlok

There is no room in MY world for assholes who use their religion as a cloak for bigotry and hatred and oppression. I fail to see how I'm hypocritical.

I'm not the one trying to prevent them from living their lives in peace, I'm not restricting them from anything nor am I trying to censor them from anything. If they left me and my kind alone, there'd be no problem... however they don't. Their "disagreement" with me is my entire existence. Of course I don't fucking like them. Don't be absurd.

So please, point out the hypocrisy. I'll wait.

We all can be hypocritical at times. I'm getting the feeling that you tend to use your homosexuality as a cloak for bigotry and hatred and oppression. How have people tried to prevent you from living your life in peace? And you do, indeed, try to censor them. If people don't understand homosexuality you call them idiots.

It's only been in the last 10 years or so that many people have even started to openly discuss and accept the fact of homosexuality. Instead of being angry and hateful you could turn it around and try to educate people on the love of all humans even if they are different from you.

If a person is always angry their point fails to come across as well because the opposing side becomes defensive and can't even hear what is being said.

You know Grimm, we have really gotten away from the subject thread with this discussion. Oops. What do yo think, am I reading more anger into your posts than you intend?

[Grimmlok]

Originally Posted by hello

We all can be hypocritical at times. I'm getting the feeling that you tend to use your homosexuality as a cloak for bigotry and hatred and oppression.

Let's see, so far I haven't oppressed anybody, the only people I have an issue with concerning my existence are those that want to do away with it or sweep it under a rug, or keep it in the shadows using theocratic means. I *hate* people who feel they have the moral authority to do that because frankly, they're ignorant and fearful and willingly choose to remain that way. Thus, it's a choice on their part, something they can change but refuse to. I will meet that with all deliberate force on my end as they've made the decision to be how they are. I've not made the choice to be how I am, it just is.

How have people tried to prevent you from living your life in peace?

The biblethumpers screaming at me across a protest line, telling me to die, that i'm going to hell, that i'm filthy and disgusting. The ones presently in office and waiting in the wings to deny me my rights to equality. The ones who forms organizations to try to censor, restrict and otherwise bend society into a narrow hypocritical religious version of how they think things should be, despite people around them not subscribing to their religion... need I go on?

And you do, indeed, try to censor them. If people don't understand homosexuality you call them idiots.

I'm sorry, understand? What's to understand.. the fact that, like them, we're human beings who want equality and to be left alone? Being bigoted towards someone for something they cannot change, like racism, is fucking idiotic. People who engage in that behavior are fucking idiots. I'm not diplomatic, and nor should I be. These people are the scum of the earth and do nothing but try to make other people miserable by exclusion, oppression, inequality and every other sort of elitism based on nothing so ephemeral as skin color or sexual orientation.

I don't begrudge them THEIR sexual orientation, or their marriage choices, or how they live their lives *until* their behavior starts encroaching on MY RIGHTS to equal treatment and personal freedom to live how I wish as long as my actions are not harmful to society. IF we could all be equal, I wouldn't give a flying fuck. However, these people don't want me to be their equal, and they use religion as an excuse to keep it that way.

Jesus wept.

It's only been in the last 10 years or so that many people have even started to openly discuss and accept the fact of homosexuality.

Maybe in your circles, honey.

Instead of being angry and hateful you could turn it around and try to educate people on the love of all humans even if they are different from you.

Been there, tried that. The only ones we can get to are the younger generation, who are thankfully growing up much more tolerant than their parents. However, the biblethumpers who wield the power are baby boomers to the elderly and they are an intractible enemy. Until they shuffle off the mortal coil we are going to be heavily outnumbered with limited allies. These are people who have the choice to educate themselves also, but simply refuse. How many times have I tried to engage these people in conversation, hell, even on the street.. they don't want to hear it. They've made up their minds. It's just wrong according to jesus, their morality, or whatevet transient system they've set up to shield themselves from anything outside their comfort zone.

If a person is always angry their point fails to come across as well because the opposing side becomes defensive and can't even hear what is being said.

They don't want to hear it. I've been to enough protests, engaged in enough debates. They don't use logic, they use religion. You can't argue with religion, because it's not based in fact or reason.

You know Grimm, we have really gotten away from the subject thread with this discussion. Oops. What do yo think, am I reading more anger into your posts than you intend?

Nope, you're reading the appropriate amount of indignation. I'm blunt, I do not suffer fools gladly and i'm *tired* of these nuts always coming after us, when we do nothing to them.

I have no empathy left, nor any patience for those who would twist their faith to justify injustice.

[hello]

*I feel opressed by you.
*You assume they choose their beliefs. To millions of people belief in the Bible isn't a choice. People are born into it. It is reality.
*You have made the choice to be who you are. And who you are isn't just your sexual person. Each decision we make changes us for the better or for the worse. It just is.
*There will always be opposition to almost everything. March's of all sorts bring in opposition. Naturally. Your freedom of speech, however, ends where my nose begins.
*Suffer fools gladly. They cannot tell you that you are going to hell. You know that. Don't allow yourself to get worked up. Press on.
*Understanding is integral to acceptance. Help them understand. It's like finally getting a math problem. Your world just opens up when you understand - and sometimes SOMEONE has to explain it to you or else you are in the dark.
*I believe you could be diplomatic. And should want to be. You could be very good at it. Persuasive even.
*Yes, people quote the Bible and can't seem to waiver from it. And we know it contradicts itself in places. Perhaps you could print out the passages that pertain to loving all people and letting God be the judge and hand them out at rallys, etc. Not as 'cleansing' as a good scream-fest, but could be effective.
*My circles include everyone/anyone who is a loving, mostly responsible person. Mostly we don't judge, but we do gossip a bit!
*The Bible isn't a "transient system".
*To you the Bible isn't fact based but to many 'it just is'.
In closing let me say I believe you still have empathy and patience to deal with the closed minded segment of the population. Just keep in mind that it is a small segment. Most people are willing to learn and love. Thanks for your time Grimm. It's very interesting and enlightening to share with you.

[Grimmlok]

*I feel opressed by you.

How have I oppressed you? Have I prevented you from doing anything? Nope.

*You assume they choose their beliefs. To millions of people belief in the Bible isn't a choice. People are born into it. It is reality.

Adhering to any BELIEF is a choice. You don't have to. You are not genetically encoded to believe in a deity. It's not ingrained in your cells, your DNA. Obeying this or that religious law, disregarding others, skipping church one sunday cuz you're just way too sick.. those are things that stem from the CHOICE of participating in a religion. I can't skip being gay.

*You have made the choice to be who you are. And who you are isn't just your sexual person. Each decision we make changes us for the better or for the worse. It just is.

I make choices that determine how I will live my life, but I can't choose my orientation any more than you can. It's NOT a choice. It is not my entire being, it is just one facet. However, this facet is obsessed over by those who would see that facet wiped out, marginalized, or sidelined and since it's an inextricable part of a being the whole PERSON gets swept up in that action. They use that facet against the whole person, just as surely as racists use the color of someones skin against their whole person.

*There will always be opposition to almost everything. March's of all sorts bring in opposition. Naturally. Your freedom of speech, however, ends where my nose begins.

Yes, people used to oppose desegregation, people used to oppose inter-racial marriages, and the abolition of slavery. All that opposition was based on ignorance, stupidity and fear mixed with elitism. My equality does not take away anybody elses, or make theirs less valid. Unfortunately, people still feel this way even though it doesn't make any logical sense. I refuse to let those kinds of people have their way with my life.

I'll live and let live when they leave me and my kind alone in peace. Till then, let slip the dogs of war.

*Suffer fools gladly. They cannot tell you that you are going to hell. You know that. Don't allow yourself to get worked up. Press on.

The words don't anger me, because the words are stupid sounds representing even more stupid ideology and ignorance and intent.

*Understanding is integral to acceptance. Help them understand. It's like finally getting a math problem. Your world just opens up when you understand - and sometimes SOMEONE has to explain it to you or else you are in the dark.

I don't bother with boomers anymore. Ive tried, I've argued till my face turned blue, I've drawn diagrams. It doesnt matter. YOU CANNOT ARGUE RELIGION. They use the religious version of the old parenting tactic "just because." There is no getting around 'just because'.

*I believe you could be diplomatic. And should want to be. You could be very good at it. Persuasive even.

See above.

*Yes, people quote the Bible and can't seem to waiver from it. And we know it contradicts itself in places. Perhaps you could print out the passages that pertain to loving all people and letting God be the judge and hand them out at rallys, etc. Not as 'cleansing' as a good scream-fest, but could be effective.

They aren't interested. I even had an interracial church fundie couple come up and scream at me about how gay marriage should be forbidden, that it wasn't natural, blah blah blah. I took the time to tell them that 100 years ago, their marriage would have been illegal and frowned upon on account of their ethnicity but people got over it. It was complete historical amnesia on their part. They didn't care. They just kept on with the bible shit, completely ignoring what I had said in favor of their bigotry.

Fuck em. I have no time for them.

*The Bible isn't a "transient system".

All religions are transient. All empires are as well. Nothing lasts forever.

*To you the Bible isn't fact based but to many 'it just is'.

It's not fact based. It's a hystorical myth. Hell, they even got Judas wrong. People can BELIEVE that it's fact based, but that doesn't mean it is. They just choose to perceive it that way. They would even if you conclusively proved them wrong anyway.

In closing let me say I believe you still have empathy and patience to deal with the closed minded segment of the population. Just keep in mind that it is a small segment. Most people are willing to learn and love. Thanks for your time Grimm. It's very interesting and enlightening to share with you.

The small segment is all I'm railing againt. The small segment also happens to be the most vocal, organized and vicious.

[AliceInWonderland]

Originally Posted by choozen1ne

Does anyone else think the idea of a Canadian Gang is funny ?

hahahahahahaha yeah really like they'd be threatening!

[Grimmlok]

Theyre actually MORE threatening because our laws are really lax on this sorta thing.

They have no problems with opening fire on a crowd of people on the main street of toronto, cuz they could be out on bail for 3 years before they ever see a trial and even then they'd only get a few years of jailtime.

[B.C.]

I read today in the local paper that a former gang member left this group and has written a book about his experience. Of course I threw the paper away at work and can't remember who he is or the title of the book

Originally Posted by Lobelia

8 dead men & 4 vehicles? Demolition Derby to the Death?

made me

[Sojiita]

Originally Posted by Grimmlok

How have I oppressed you? Have I prevented you from doing anything? Nope.



Adhering to any BELIEF is a choice. You don't have to. You are not genetically encoded to believe in a deity. It's not ingrained in your cells, your DNA. Obeying this or that religious law, disregarding others, skipping church one sunday cuz you're just way too sick.. those are things that stem from the CHOICE of participating in a religion. I can't skip being gay.



I make choices that determine how I will live my life, but I can't choose my orientation any more than you can. It's NOT a choice. It is not my entire being, it is just one facet. However, this facet is obsessed over by those who would see that facet wiped out, marginalized, or sidelined and since it's an inextricable part of a being the whole PERSON gets swept up in that action. They use that facet against the whole person, just as surely as racists use the color of someones skin against their whole person.



Yes, people used to oppose desegregation, people used to oppose inter-racial marriages, and the abolition of slavery. All that opposition was based on ignorance, stupidity and fear mixed with elitism. My equality does not take away anybody elses, or make theirs less valid. Unfortunately, people still feel this way even though it doesn't make any logical sense. I refuse to let those kinds of people have their way with my life.

I'll live and let live when they leave me and my kind alone in peace. Till then, let slip the dogs of war.



The words don't anger me, because the words are stupid sounds representing even more stupid ideology and ignorance and intent.



I don't bother with boomers anymore. Ive tried, I've argued till my face turned blue, I've drawn diagrams. It doesnt matter. YOU CANNOT ARGUE RELIGION. They use the religious version of the old parenting tactic "just because." There is no getting around 'just because'.



See above.



They aren't interested. I even had an interracial church fundie couple come up and scream at me about how gay marriage should be forbidden, that it wasn't natural, blah blah blah. I took the time to tell them that 100 years ago, their marriage would have been illegal and frowned upon on account of their ethnicity but people got over it. It was complete historical amnesia on their part. They didn't care. They just kept on with the bible shit, completely ignoring what I had said in favor of their bigotry.

Fuck em. I have no time for them.



All religions are transient. All empires are as well. Nothing lasts forever.



It's not fact based. It's a hystorical myth. Hell, they even got Judas wrong. People can BELIEVE that it's fact based, but that doesn't mean it is. They just choose to perceive it that way. They would even if you conclusively proved them wrong anyway.



The small segment is all I'm railing againt. The small segment also happens to be the most vocal, organized and vicious.

I have to say Grimm that I agree with most of what you say but you can piss even me off! lol. However this response and the long response before it were two of your best and most rational posts to date- almost eloquent. You really should consider getting out of computers or what ever it is you do and think about some kind of cummunicative job or position. You have the goods to do it.

[Grimmlok]

ALMOST eloquent!? ALMOST?! I POURED MY HEART AND SOUL INTO THEM!

*runs crying from the room, knocking over a lamp, a vase and an old lady*

Ok so no, I didn't, it was off the cuff.

But what the hell is a communicative job or position?

[snakebread]

Ugh, Grimm, are you telling me the legal system of Canada is as bad as the healthcare system?

And--who is this hello person who is so utterly brainwashed and stupid they make me want to vomit?

(is that against forum rules? oops.)

[Lobelia]

^^^Wow, that's really rude & mean spirited, and also a personal attack.

I thought Grimm & hello handled themselves quite well in a spirited debate.

[A*O]

It is against the rules - You can only call someone "utterly brainwashed and stupid" if you can prove they are a Scientologist.

[Grimmlok]

.. or a michael jackson fan.

[deckchick]

Or a thread hi-jacker...